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#21
Old 11-15-2010, 09:09 PM
CarlosG815
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Originally Posted by bojangles1987 View Post
The third fight with Marquez should have happened 5 years ago? So you're criticizing Pacquiao for not time traveling after the second fight back to 2005 to fight Marquez a third time, which would actually be their second fight?
Manny lost the first fight to Marquez. I am convinced of that. I have watched the fight over and over and it was clear who landed the CLEANER shots. Marquez wanted a rematch right away. Manny didn't want anything to do with that, as I'm sure he knew he wouldn't be so lucky to get a draw, and his management couldn't afford a loss at that critical point in his career. So he waited until he thought Marquez had slowed down, yet this time Marquez handled him even easier and was robbed of his victory.

Now further down the line it is clear to me that JMM does not have it anymore and he has never been a contender over 135 so why even entertain the thought of that fight? The time to beat Marquez and have it mean something is long gone. That fight is meaningless and at 147 it's an even bigger joke.
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#22
Old 11-15-2010, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by CarlosG815 View Post
Nothing he did in 2010 did anything that showed he is any greater than he was when he beat Cotto in 2009.

Margarito was a shot opponent who had no chance at beating Pacquiao. There are many better fighters out there he could have faced who would have been LIVE opponents that would COME TO FIGHT yet Manny decided to face a guy who was busted cheating and had to jump through hoops to get his license reinstated. Not only that but nobody wanted to see this fight, as they believed Margarito is a disgrace to the sport, he did not deserve a title shot or a huge payday.

It is unacceptable to continue fighting shot fighters who are at the end of their careers and are nowhere near the top of their game and then claim greatness.

Manny beat up a human punching bag who had no chance in there and I didn't find it entertaining in the least.

Instead of telling the media that Shane Mosley is "Too good," Pacquiao and his team should say "BRING IT ON" because "I am the best in the world and I want to prove it." But he didn't, he has avoided Mosley for 2 years, refused to take a blood test for a career highest purse with Mayweather, will not acknowledge Martinez or Williams as contenders, yet continues to fight guys who are laid off and years past their best (or in Margarito's case, SHOT.)

To be the best you have to beat the best and IMO Manny Pacquiao has not done that.

And Sonny how can you possibly have that opinion of Manny Pacquiao and have the opinion that you have of Lennox Lewis? Manny and Lennox are from the same cloth as far as I'm concerned. If Manny is top 3 ATG then Lennox Lewis is a top 3 ATG heavyweight.

I don't want this thread to go into Lennox Lewis but I am simply making a point. Let's not let it get too out of hand with Lennox but keep it on Manny.

Now Roach is talking about a fight with Marquez. This should have happened 5 years ago if it was going to happen at all, yet it didn't. Now it's just another slap in the face to boxing fans everywhere.

When Manny decides to fight a live opponent, I will give him all the credit in the world. It wasn't until he started to fight SHOT fighters that he was dominant. When he fought guys near the top of their game (Morales, JMM) he got beat up and lost. I do not believe Manny has gotten better since that time, but I believe he has fought GARBAGE competition and the guys he's fighting are TAYLOR made for him. Both Clottey and Margarito are human punching bags when they fight a guy who is an "in and out" mid range fighter with tons of speed and stamina.

Those are not good matchups, they are bad for boxing, and I believe that history will remember those fights exactly as I have stated. It is unacceptable to turn down Shane Mosley then go on and fight Margarito.

No fight with Shane at 147 but a fight with Margarito at 150 is OK? Why is this ok? Why isn't this put into question? Since moving up he has fought guys who are at the end of their career.

David Diaz has done nothing since he fought Pacquiao, Hatton has done nothing, Oscar was a shell of his former self and was in the worst "fight shape" of his entire career and has done nothing and will never fight again, Clottey came out of nowhere (he was basically retired) and will probably not fight anymore, Margarito's career was all but over as well when Manny decided to fight him. I believe that if Margarito wasn't PERFECT for "handing Manny his 8th title on a silver platter" that Arum would have stopped investing in him and he would still be banned in the states and probably not fight anymore.

These are not top contenders at the top of their game, these are shot fighters who do NOT belong in the ring with a world class fighter like Manny Pacquiao and they do not deserve TITLE SHOTS.

Manny is as great today as he was the night of his fight with Cotto November of 2009.
I would point out that Mosley is shot and at the tail end of his career hence why Mayweather fought him and why Floyd gets no credit for beating him.

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#23
Old 11-15-2010, 11:04 PM
CarlosG815
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I would point out that Mosley is shot and at the tail end of his career hence why Mayweather fought him and why Floyd gets no credit for beating him.

Poet
This thread is not about Floyd as he has no relevance here, so why bring it up?

Mosley isn't as FRESH as he used to be but he is still a crisp puncher, has speed, power and can BOX.

The only downfall is his stamina isn't what it used to be. He isn't as good in the late rounds as he was when he fought Oscar, so I'd give him 6-8 rounds to finish Manny but after that, Manny's workrate will not have slowed whereas in fighting Manny, Mosley would be very winded having tried to keep up with him.

And if Mosley is shot, why not fight him? Why fight shot version of Oscar, Clottey, and Margarito??? Why will he not fight Shane? Shane has a following and could put up the same numbers, if not better than Clottey and Margarito. Shane is always willing to take a small cut of a purse, he never really complains.

The reason is simple - Shane at 147 is not as shot as those guys and even though he is past it, at 147 is a COMPETITIVE fight, which is not what team Pacquiao wants. They want washed up step-on's that will take a 12 round beating and not win a single round.
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#24
Old 11-16-2010, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by CarlosG815 View Post
Manny lost the first fight to Marquez. I am convinced of that. I have watched the fight over and over and it was clear who landed the CLEANER shots. Marquez wanted a rematch right away. Manny didn't want anything to do with that, as I'm sure he knew he wouldn't be so lucky to get a draw, and his management couldn't afford a loss at that critical point in his career. So he waited until he thought Marquez had slowed down, yet this time Marquez handled him even easier and was robbed of his victory.

Now further down the line it is clear to me that JMM does not have it anymore and he has never been a contender over 135 so why even entertain the thought of that fight? The time to beat Marquez and have it mean something is long gone. That fight is meaningless and at 147 it's an even bigger joke.
Marquez clearly dominated the first fight. No debate there. But knockdowns count, and Marquez lost 4 points on Pac in that first round, which came back to bite him in the ass.

The second fight was extremely close. Like, holy hell neither guy really won close. Why people say Marquez clearly won the second fight I can't understand, because for every round or two one fighter won, the other would even it up. So no, Marquez was not anything remotely close to robbed.

Pac did not duck Marquez. He fought him twice. Not to mention Marquez constantly pricing himself out of fights, maybe it might have happened earlier but Marquez wanted too much money.
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#25
Old 11-16-2010, 07:37 AM
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I just don't understand Sonnyboy ranking Pacquiao in his Top 3.

I will concede, it's his personal choice, fair enough, but how in the hell does Pacquiao rank above Greb, Robinson, Canzoneri, Mclarnin, Armstrong, Langford etc etc


I just don't see it.

I am open to hear your case.
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#26
Old 11-16-2010, 07:46 AM
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Top 25 is perfect for him at the moment. I think he has a spot there locked based on his resume and very rare combination of speed and skill. He is in the discussion for best offensive fighter ever.
Really? A guy who has little to no inside game?
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#27
Old 11-16-2010, 09:14 AM
bojangles1987
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Really? A guy who has little to no inside game?
Yes, really. The ease and precision with which Pacquiao accurately throws four and five punch combos with both hands is just out of this world. Even in the fights he "got his ass kicked" in, against Morales and Marquez, he wasn't completely neutralized in the least. He's developed his offensive game to the point his opponents can barely mount their own offense because Pac uses the opening where they are throwing to put four or five punches in their face.

His combination of speed, power, skill, and stamina absolutely puts him in the conversation for best offensive fighter ever. The best anyone has ever done in Pac's prime is contain his offense, no one has ever neutralized it.
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#28
Old 11-16-2010, 09:42 AM
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Ray Robinson & Henry Armstrong > Pac offensively.
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#29
Old 11-16-2010, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Stones! View Post
I just don't understand Sonnyboy ranking Pacquiao in his Top 3.

I will concede, it's his personal choice, fair enough, but how in the hell does Pacquiao rank above Greb, Robinson, Canzoneri, Mclarnin, Armstrong, Langford etc etc


I just don't see it.

I am open to hear your case.
When you take the subjectivity of comparing different weight classes, add it to the subjectivity of comparing different eras, all bets are off. You can make a case for any of those fighters to be in the all time top 3. Maybe Pacquiao is or isn't. I'm just not going to spend much time debating it.
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#30
Old 11-16-2010, 12:25 PM
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This thread is not about Floyd as he has no relevance here, so why bring it up?

Mosley isn't as FRESH as he used to be but he is still a crisp puncher, has speed, power and can BOX.

The only downfall is his stamina isn't what it used to be. He isn't as good in the late rounds as he was when he fought Oscar, so I'd give him 6-8 rounds to finish Manny but after that, Manny's workrate will not have slowed whereas in fighting Manny, Mosley would be very winded having tried to keep up with him.

And if Mosley is shot, why not fight him? Why fight shot version of Oscar, Clottey, and Margarito??? Why will he not fight Shane? Shane has a following and could put up the same numbers, if not better than Clottey and Margarito. Shane is always willing to take a small cut of a purse, he never really complains.

The reason is simple - Shane at 147 is not as shot as those guys and even though he is past it, at 147 is a COMPETITIVE fight, which is not what team Pacquiao wants. They want washed up step-on's that will take a 12 round beating and not win a single round.
It's relevent because your crucifying Manny for fighting EXACTLY the kind of opponents you're giving the "other guy" a pass on. And if Mosley isn't shot please explain his last fight. The dude is 39 and looks aweful. Hand speed? Gone. Reflexes? Shot. If Manny were to fight Mosley he'd get the same kind of crap he's getting for fighting Margarito (a fighter much closer to prime than Mosley is). At least Margarito was a full-fledged Middleweight on fight night.

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