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#41
Old 09-12-2010, 06:31 AM
prinzemanspopa
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
I don't know and could be mistaken if they were even still taking place. But don't you think it was an advantage for Leonard to wait till Hagler was on the slide and also have a 12 round distance? Why didn't he fight them when they were both prime at a 15 round distance? Most would agree the outcome would have likely been different.



The WBC were not sanctioning 15 round title fights at the tme.Three of Hagler's last four title defences before Leonard came in title fights scheduled for twelve rounds.


Difficult to fight someone when you're in retirement,and don't attempt to downplay Leonard's injury.Leonard was further removed from his prime than Hagler was,having fought just ten rounds in five years.


Your own opinion does not equal "most",so don't even attempt to try and use that in your argument,gabby.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
Leonard being the smaller man is definitely a myth that needs correcting. I know for a fact that Hagler was no more than 5'7" and a half with Leonard being almost 5'10" Leonard was clearly faster of hand and foot and has admitted MANY time to waiting to catch Hagler at the right moment. Combine those with the gloves and the ring and those are advantages.


Oh,so it's a myth that Leonard began his career some twenty pounds lighter than the weight that Hagler started and ended his career at,is it?


Using your logic,Marvin Hagler was a bigger man than Dwight Qawi,who was several inches shorter than Hagler.Now,Leonard did fight Hagler,and even moved up two weight classes(13 pounds) to do so.Question is,why didn't Hagler move up the same way Leonard did to fight Qawi? I mean,Qawi is smaller,and it's only two weight classes.



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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
An unwanted poster telling someone else to leave this site.....what a hoot!!


Clearly you didn't read his post that I was responding to.I you had,you would have understood why I made the response that I did.


MMGAY ans have proven time and time again that they don't know anything aout the sport of oxing.
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#42
Old 09-12-2010, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by NChristo View Post
The myth that the p4p term was created for Ray Robinson, when it was actually being used for Bob Fitzsimmons and Tony Canzoneri way before Ray was even on the scene.
Is this true??

do you have some evidence??
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#43
Old 09-12-2010, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by prinzemanspopa View Post
The WBC were not sanctioning 15 round title fights at the tme.Three of Hagler's last four title defences before Leonard came in title fights scheduled for twelve rounds.


Difficult to fight someone when you're in retirement,and don't attempt to downplay Leonard's injury.Leonard was further removed from his prime than Hagler was,having fought just ten rounds in five years.


Your own opinion does not equal "most",so don't even attempt to try and use that in your argument,gabby.
He might have been more inactive, but in no way was he further removed from his prime. Hagler started many years before Leonard did, had many, many more fights, some of those very hard fights just before the Leonard match when it was clear he was on the slide.

Obviously Leonard taking so long off was not good, but he came back without missing a step, and part of the reason he did win was because he caught Hagler at the perfect time. It was also that Leonard was bloody brilliant, fought the perfect fight while Hagler fought the stupidest fight of his whole career. There were many subplots that made up that fight....But, the fact remains that Leonard came back after a huge layoff to beat one of the greatest MW's of all time.

It's also a pretty damn obvious fact that Hagler was going to retire, was on the slide and out of his prime and was caught at the right time, but it still took someone of Leonard's skill, will and determination to succeed in using that to his advantage to win the fight.

While Hagler retired, and was going to anyway so don't say he would have kept going if he didn't lose, Leonard fought on for much longer and had some great fights afterward so he still had a fair bit left in the tank.

Last edited by BennyST; 09-12-2010 at 08:26 AM.
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#44
Old 09-12-2010, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by prinzemanspopa View Post
Oh,so it's a myth that Leonard began his career some twenty pounds lighter than the weight that Hagler started and ended his career at,is it?


Using your logic,Marvin Hagler was a bigger man than Dwight Qawi,who was several inches shorter than Hagler.Now,Leonard did fight Hagler,and even moved up two weight classes(13 pounds) to do so.Question is,why didn't Hagler move up the same way Leonard did to fight Qawi? I mean,Qawi is smaller,and it's only two weight classes.
I know what you mean, and Leonard overall the smaller man, but at the time they fought Leonard was a solid MW size and his physical dimensions were easily bigger than Hagler. Hagler had been there longer though and that was definitely his natural weight.

It's like Pac and David Diaz or something though. Pac started at Flyweight or whatever, but he was bigger than Diaz when they fought. Same thing with Hatton. Everyone thought Hatton was the bigger man, and yet on fight night it was pretty clear they were exactly the same size. Pac had slowly bulked up so he had good solid frame at that weight. People for get that at the smaller weights he was like Paul Williams and he filled out perfectly.

That's just like Leonard. He was a monstrous WW and he filled out over the years that his size at 160 was not of the slightest issue. Was Floyd the smaller man against Mosley? Certainly didn't look it to me. Was Oscar the same size as Floyd when they fought? They both started at the same weight. Was he the bigger man against Marquez? They started only 4 pounds in difference and yet to me it looked like Mayweather was Goliath to Marquez's David.

By the time they fought, Leonard was just as big as Hagler as a MW and yet was actually bigger in his physical dimensions. Hagler was still a very solid MW, even though he was on the small side, but the size played no factor whatsoever in the fight.
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#45
Old 09-12-2010, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Carlsson View Post
Is this true??

do you have some evidence??
Yep, it was used by a lot more people then just the 2 named as well e.g. Jimmy McLarnin, Kid Chocolate, Benny Leonard, Henry Armstrong, etc.

Quote:
Source: http://www.library.illinois.edu/Defa...Continuation=0

Newspaper article from 1935, stating Canzoneri has been pound for pound the best.


Quote:
Source: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...te+pound&hl=en

Article from 1930 saying that Kid Chocolate is pound for pound one of the finest.

Quote:
Source: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...or+pound&hl=en

Another of Chocolate again saying how he is one of the cleverest fighters pound for pound.

Last edited by NChristo; 09-12-2010 at 08:41 AM.
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#46
Old 09-12-2010, 12:30 PM
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Great points being made by both sides regarding Leonard-Hagler. Here's how I see it:
Both fighters were clearly past their peaks for different reasons. Hagler had many more fights and fought in a way that exposed him to punishment. His previous two fights with Hearns and Mugabi were wars that clearly diminished him. Leonard did know that Hagler wasn't quite the same when he decided to come back. Leonard only had 1 fight in the last 5 years prior to Hagler, inactivity of that degree affects a fighter. He was not a blown up welterweight, he was a very legitimate middleweight when he stepped into the ring with Hagler, but he had never fought a top level fighter above 147 before. Hagler was a devastating and powerful fighter at 160, Leonard wasn't small but Hagler had an edge in strength.
The main factor in this fight wasn't who was bigger or closer to their prime, it was that Leonard fought much smarter than Hagler. Marvin wasted early rounds trying to outbox Leonard from a righty stance rather than attacking from the beginning. He let too many rounds stay close late when Leonard would flurry and steal the round. Hagler was someone who always felt disrespected, he wanted to make a point when he got his chance. After he got a draw in his first MW title fight he came back a much more aggressive fighter, not wanting the fight going to judges. When he fought a huge name in Tommy Hearns he risked and slugged with reckless abandonment early, fighting Hearns's fight and he was able to beat him. He wanted to beat Leonard fighting Leonard's fight. It was a stupid gameplan that cost him. By the time he started to adjust Leonard had picked up rounds and more importantly, confidence and ringwork with the best middleweight in the world.
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#47
Old 09-12-2010, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by NChristo View Post
Yep, it was used by a lot more people then just the 2 named as well e.g. Jimmy McLarnin, Kid Chocolate, Benny Leonard, Henry Armstrong, etc.


Source: http://www.library.illinois.edu/Defa...Continuation=0

Newspaper article from 1935, stating Canzoneri has been pound for pound the best.



Source: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...te+pound&hl=en

Article from 1930 saying that Kid Chocolate is pound for pound one of the finest.


Source: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...or+pound&hl=en

Another of Chocolate again saying how he is one of the cleverest fighters pound for pound.
thx alot. myth debunked

i find that quite surprising actually, i read several places that the pound-for-pound term was created cause of robinson.
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#48
Old 09-12-2010, 01:49 PM
prinzemanspopa
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Originally Posted by BennyST View Post
He was a monstrous WW.

Yeah,the same "monstrous" welterweight who barely weighed in as a middleweight,despite stepping on the scales fully clothed for his fight against Marcos Geraldo.


Leonard wasn't anything close to being a "montrous" welterweight.




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Originally Posted by BennyST View Post
He might have been more inactive, but in no way was he further removed from his prime. Hagler started many years before Leonard did, had many, many more fights, some of those very hard fights just before the Leonard match when it was clear he was on the slide.


If only they all knew that back then,huh? Had they known,perhaps it wouldn't have been such an upset that magazine covers such as this would be used:






Long periods of inactivity will effectively end one's prime.This is just basic common sense.We're not talking about just over a year of inactivity here.


Leonard claimed to have trained for a year for this one fight,and yet he was visibly tired by the middle rounds.Stamina was certainly never an issue before his layoff.
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#49
Old 09-12-2010, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prinzemanspopa View Post
Your own opinion does not equal "most",so don't even attempt to try and use that in your argument,gabby.
Unfortunately for you MOST do believe there would have been a different outcome had this fight been a 15 round fight. This fight was a controversial SD over 12 rounds, and just a few posts down you yourself said Leonard was tired in the middle rounds. does it not stand to reason Hagler would have pulled ahead with another 3 rounds? Can't have it both ways kid.


Quote:
Oh,so it's a myth that Leonard began his career some twenty pounds lighter than the weight that Hagler started and ended his career at,is it?
Leonard was taller and proved he could carry the extra weight and be effective not just a 160, but against LaLonde at 168. It doesn't matter where a fighter starts or ends, only where and when he is effective.
Quote:

Using your logic,Marvin Hagler was a bigger man than Dwight Qawi,who was several inches shorter than Hagler.Now,Leonard did fight Hagler,and even moved up two weight classes(13 pounds) to do so.Question is,why didn't Hagler move up the same way Leonard did to fight Qawi? I mean,Qawi is smaller,and it's only two weight classes.
I don't know how tall Qawi actually is or what this has to do with the argument at hand, but I know for a fact Hagler is no more than 5'7" and a half tops. I know this because I met him and spent time with him. I know Ray Leonard had advantages in their fight with gloves, ring and size. I also know as a fact that Leonard waited till Hagler declined to fight him because he has said this himself.



Quote:
Clearly you didn't read his post that I was responding to.I you had,you would have understood why I made the response that I did.


MMGAY ans have proven time and time again that they don't know anything aout the sport of oxing.

You have proven time and time again that you don't know anything about the sport of boxing and you have no place on this board to tell ANYONE whether they can or cannot post here.
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#50
Old 09-12-2010, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyST View Post
I know what you mean, and Leonard overall the smaller man, but at the time they fought Leonard was a solid MW size and his physical dimensions were easily bigger than Hagler. Hagler had been there longer though and that was definitely his natural weight.

It's like Pac and David Diaz or something though. Pac started at Flyweight or whatever, but he was bigger than Diaz when they fought. Same thing with Hatton. Everyone thought Hatton was the bigger man, and yet on fight night it was pretty clear they were exactly the same size. Pac had slowly bulked up so he had good solid frame at that weight. People for get that at the smaller weights he was like Paul Williams and he filled out perfectly.

That's just like Leonard. He was a monstrous WW and he filled out over the years that his size at 160 was not of the slightest issue. Was Floyd the smaller man against Mosley? Certainly didn't look it to me. Was Oscar the same size as Floyd when they fought? They both started at the same weight. Was he the bigger man against Marquez? They started only 4 pounds in difference and yet to me it looked like Mayweather was Goliath to Marquez's David.

By the time they fought, Leonard was just as big as Hagler as a MW and yet was actually bigger in his physical dimensions. Hagler was still a very solid MW, even though he was on the small side, but the size played no factor whatsoever in the fight.
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