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#1
Old 07-22-2010, 05:10 PM
GameGod
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Default The Perfect Boxer

Choosing the highest level boxer (P4P in his prime) for each of the below traits seperately, we can get an idea of who was the best at each different thing and who to mix to create the perfect boxer. I built the list up off various different websites; if you think I'm missing something just tell me and add it.

Consistency, Hard Training, Conditioning, Mental Game (meaning ), Game Planning () and Trainer Bonus ().
I've also added one Skill field: Longevity (how well they can maintain a high level of ability into their mid-to-late thirties).

I've also added one Extra field: PPV Buys (meaning how many PPV buys the fighter did compared over eras, so that inflation is compensated for in your analysis).

Tools:
  • Durability
  • Hand Speed
  • Foot Speed
  • Reflexes
  • Size & Build
  • Stamina
  • Athleticism
  • Overall Talent

Skills:
  • Head Movement
  • Body Movement
  • Footwork
  • Defense
  • Ring Generalship
  • Body Punching
  • Balance
  • Longevity
  • Use of Reach Advantage
  • Use of Height Advantage

Styles:
  • Boxing Ability (BOXING skills – people good at boxing, e.g. Mayweather, Whitaker)
  • Swarming Ability (SWARMING skills – people good at swarming, e.g. Dempsey, Tyson)
  • Slugging Ability (SLUGGING skills – people good at slugging, e.g. Foreman, McClellan)
  • In-Fighting Ability
  • Mid-Range Ability
  • Long-Range Ability
  • Counterpunching Ability

Punching and Dodging:
  • Overall Strength
  • One-Punch Power
  • General Punch Power
  • Accuracy
  • Timing
  • Straightness of Punches
  • Variety of Offensive Arsenal
  • Dodging

Punches:
  • Left Hook
  • Right Hook
  • Left Cross
  • Right Cross
  • Left Straight
  • Right Straight
  • Left Uppercut
  • Right Uppercut
  • Left Jab
  • Right Jab
  • Overhand

Mental:
  • Mental Strength
  • Chin
  • Endurance
  • Heart
  • Desire
  • Killer Instinct
  • Work Rate
  • Intimidation
  • Consistency
  • Hard Training
  • Conditioning
  • Mental Game (how hard they think and strategize in the ring)
  • Game Planning (how good their game plans for each opponent are, and how well they stick to this plan)
  • Trainer Bonus (how well they listen to what their trainers have to say and adapt to that)

Media Extras:
  • Pre-Fight Mind Games
  • In-Fight Mind Games
  • Media Savvy
  • Charisma
  • PPV Buys

Status Extras:
  • Adversary
  • Trainer
  • Cutman
  • Manager

The last few wouldn't make much of a difference to fights but they can definitely help.

Last edited by GameGod; 07-26-2010 at 12:28 PM.
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#2
Old 07-22-2010, 05:24 PM
NChristo
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Going to hard to do but I'll give it a shot, especially doing it between all weight classes.
We don't know how the tools talents of lower weight classes would do at a higher and vice versa, e.g how does LaMotta's chin / Thomas Hearns power hold up at heavy ? or Meldrick Taylors speed at the lower weights, . Probably bad examples because LaMottas chin was great and Taylor's speed was phenomenal but I think you get the idea.

By Defense do you mean technique ?, because Head movement, Body movement and footwork all go into it.

Props for making this, would be interesting to see what people come out with.
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#3
Old 07-22-2010, 05:26 PM
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#4
Old 07-22-2010, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NChristo View Post
Going to hard to do but I'll give it a shot, especially doing it between all weight classes.
It is probably hard to do, but just like P4P is possible to evaluate, so is the P4P level of every fighter in the different respective attributes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NChristo View Post
We don't know how the tools talents of lower weight classes would do at a higher and vice versa, e.g how does LaMotta's chin / Thomas Hearns power hold up at heavy ? or Meldrick Taylors speed at the lower weights, . Probably bad examples because LaMottas chin was great and Taylor's speed was phenomenal but I think you get the idea.
Like I said, this is a P4P, Time-for-Time (i.e. making concessions for older fighters and evaluating as if they were all in the same era), Prime-for-Prime list. Therefore, we don't need to think about how Thomas Hearns' power would hold up at Heavyweight; on your list, if you think that Hearns is the most powerful puncher P4P of all time, just put him in for Punch Power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NChristo View Post
By Defense do you mean technique ?, because Head movement, Body movement and footwork all go into it.
I mean overall defensive ability, not only technique. Me going into the head movement, body movement and footwork is just breaking it down further, because the best defensive boxer will probably not necessarily have the best footwork or movement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NChristo View Post
Props for making this, would be interesting to see what people come out with.
Thanks, anytime.
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#5
Old 07-22-2010, 06:32 PM
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Thanks, made things clearer.

The other thing I noticed is on the punches section you only had cross and no straight or overhand.

The Cross is a counter punch that goes over the opponents jab, it's different from a straight or overhand punch, should add them as well.
That's all

Last edited by NChristo; 07-22-2010 at 06:37 PM.
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#6
Old 07-22-2010, 06:36 PM
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Wow, a very tough and time consuming task:

I can see why you're called 'GameGod'. It seems to a very computer game like system of building the perfect boxer.......being based on attributes.

It isn't without merit though, nice idea.....you have covered alot!

That said I think it is easier to think of 'as close to perfection' as you can in certain ATG fighters and then tweak their styles, but this poses problems....for example:

Ray Robinson was pretty much great at everything. Handspeed, footspeed, accuracy, combination punching, punch power in either hand, all the punches in the book, he could fight aggressively or defensively, he had a terrific chin, durability, 15 round stamina, workrate, heart and career longevity.

BUT you're bound to find a trainer who would say that he should have kept his hands up rather than leaving the left low or that he could have been a touch more elusive....he certainly had the reflexes.

The problem is, you could say the perfect boxer would have been a copy of Ray with these extra tweaks...........However his jab may well have been less quick when fired from the head level or his combination work might of suffered. If he tried to be more elusive regarding the slipping of punches he might have shown a poorer workrate or have been less aggressive, this might have cost him some of his closer fights. So you get stuck based on a boxer's success with a given style.

This also works for many other pound for pound ATGs like Jones Jnr, Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns, Larry Holmes or Gene Tunney.


You could also ponder who is the most perfect boxer for each conventional style?

Peak a boo
Detroit
Southpaw
Open/unorthodox
Etc

For example, prime Mike Tyson was a terrific exponent of the peak a boo style, many trainers love to see this style perfected in the gym ( hands up before and after punching, slipping punches before countering, blocking what isn't slipped ). There are flaws in the style though, the exponents are cannon fodder for a good jab!

You cant even say that Mike was the pefect boxer for the peak a boo style......he was short for his weight and he didn't have a great reach. He did however make his lack of dimensions his advantage. So one disadvantage can be another's advantage.


Or the Detroit style, you could say 'give Tommy Hearns a superb chin and you have the perfect boxer' but it doesn't mean that a good pressure fighter might not have beaten him, prime Roberto Duran for example.

Building a perfect boxer is pretty much impossible, but there are plenty of ATGs with superb attributes, we should appreciate them for what they brought because the perfect boxer will never come along:

For every Robinson there is a LaMotta

For every Mosley there is a Forrest

For every Ali there is a Frazier

For every Chavez their is a Whitaker or Taylor

For every Leonard there is a Duran

For every Jones Jnr there is someone who will beat him when he is older, weight drained and is able to exploit his lack of basic fundamental skills like Tarver


Mayweather will be beaten soon enough too! A certain aggressive, high workrate southpaw might well be his stylistic nightmare!
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#7
Old 07-22-2010, 06:38 PM
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Tools:
  • Durability
    George Chuvalo
  • Hand Speed
  • Foot Speed
    Ali
  • Reflexes
    Roy Jones Junior
  • Size & Build
  • Stamina
    Marciano
  • Athleticism
  • Overall Talent
    Sugar Ray Robinson

Skills:
  • Head Movement
  • Body Movement
  • Footwork
    Jersey Joe Walcott
  • Defense
    Willie Pep
  • Ring Generalship
  • Body Punching
    Mike McCallum
  • Balance

Styles:
  • Boxing Ability (BOXING skills – people good at boxing, e.g. Mayweather, Whitaker)
    Whitaker
  • Swarming Ability (SWARMING skills – people good at swarming, e.g. Dempsey, Tyson)
    Harry Greb
  • Slugging Ability (SLUGGING skills – people good at slugging, e.g. Foreman, McClellan)
  • In-Fighting Ability
    Duran
  • Mid-Range Ability
    Tyson
  • Long-Range Ability
    Hearns
  • Counterpunching Ability
Hagler
Punching and Dodging:
Duran
  • Overall Strength
  • One-Punch Power
    Shavers
  • General Punch Power
    Langford
  • Accuracy
    Louis
  • Timing
  • Straightness of Punches
  • Variety of Offensive Arsenal
    Sugar Ray Robinson
  • Dodging
Nicolino Locche

Punches:
  • Left Hook
  • Right Hook
  • Left Cross
  • Right Cross
  • Uppercut
  • Jab

Mental:
  • Mental Strength
  • Chin
    Chuvalo
  • Endurance
  • Heart
  • Desire
  • Killer Instinct
    Dempsey
  • Work Rate
    Marciano
  • Intimidation
    Liston
Extras:
  • Pre-Fight Mind Games
    Ali
  • In-Fight Mind Games
  • Media Savvy
    Sugar Ray Leonard
  • Charisma
    Ali
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#8
Old 07-22-2010, 06:40 PM
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Should have bolded above.
Threw a few names in there will work on the rest, if nothing else it gives a start to the arguments
Nice thread though
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#9
Old 07-22-2010, 07:00 PM
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Chin
Marvin Hagler

Hand Speed
Meldrick Taylor

Foot Speed
Ray Robinson

Reflexes
Roy Jones Jr

Size & Build
Sandy Saddler

Stamina
Stanley Ketchel

Athleticism
Roy Jones Jr

Overall Talent
Pernell Whitaker

Skills
Floyd Mayweather Jr

Head Movement
Henry Armstrong

Body Movement
Pernell Whitaker

Footwork
Cassius Clay


Defense
Pernell Whitaker

Ring Generalship
Ray Robinson

Body Punching
Julio Cesar Chavez

Balance
Ray Robinson

In-Fighting Ability
Julio Cesar Chavez


Mid-Range Ability
Ray Leonard

Long-Range Ability
Joe Louis

Counterpunching Ability
Floyd Mayweather Jr

Punching and Dodging
Roy Jones Jr

Overall Strength
Jake Lamotta

One-Punch Power
Sam Langford

General Punch Power
Ruben Olivares

Accuracy
Floyd Mayweather Jr

Timing
Joe Louis

Straightness of Punches
Alexis Arguello


Variety of Offensive Arsenal
Ray Robinson

Dodging
Pernell Whitaker

Mental Strength
Carlos Monzon

Endurance
George Cuvalo

Heart
Rocky Marciano

Desire
Rocky Marciano

Killer Instinct
Joe Louis

Work Rate
Henry Armstrong

Intimidation
Mike Tyson

Pre-Fight Mind Games
Muhammad Ali

In-Fight Mind Games
Muhammad Ali

Charisma
Ray Leonard
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:30 AM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NChristo View Post
Thanks, made things clearer.

The other thing I noticed is on the punches section you only had cross and no straight or overhand.

The Cross is a counter punch that goes over the opponents jab, it's different from a straight or overhand punch, should add them as well.
That's all
I'll add the overhand punch, thanks for the ideas and suggestions. However, in what way is a cross different from a straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
Wow, a very tough and time consuming task:

I can see why you're called 'GameGod'. It seems to a very computer game like system of building the perfect boxer.......being based on attributes.

It isn't without merit though, nice idea.....you have covered alot!

That said I think it is easier to think of 'as close to perfection' as you can in certain ATG fighters and then tweak their styles, but this poses problems....for example:

Ray Robinson was pretty much great at everything. Handspeed, footspeed, accuracy, combination punching, punch power in either hand, all the punches in the book, he could fight aggressively or defensively, he had a terrific chin, durability, 15 round stamina, workrate, heart and career longevity.

BUT you're bound to find a trainer who would say that he should have kept his hands up rather than leaving the left low or that he could have been a touch more elusive....he certainly had the reflexes.

The problem is, you could say the perfect boxer would have been a copy of Ray with these extra tweaks...........However his jab may well have been less quick when fired from the head level or his combination work might of suffered. If he tried to be more elusive regarding the slipping of punches he might have shown a poorer workrate or have been less aggressive, this might have cost him some of his closer fights. So you get stuck based on a boxer's success with a given style.

This also works for many other pound for pound ATGs like Jones Jnr, Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns, Larry Holmes or Gene Tunney.


You could also ponder who is the most perfect boxer for each conventional style?

Peak a boo
Detroit
Southpaw
Open/unorthodox
Etc

For example, prime Mike Tyson was a terrific exponent of the peak a boo style, many trainers love to see this style perfected in the gym ( hands up before and after punching, slipping punches before countering, blocking what isn't slipped ). There are flaws in the style though, the exponents are cannon fodder for a good jab!

You cant even say that Mike was the pefect boxer for the peak a boo style......he was short for his weight and he didn't have a great reach. He did however make his lack of dimensions his advantage. So one disadvantage can be another's advantage.


Or the Detroit style, you could say 'give Tommy Hearns a superb chin and you have the perfect boxer' but it doesn't mean that a good pressure fighter might not have beaten him, prime Roberto Duran for example.

Building a perfect boxer is pretty much impossible, but there are plenty of ATGs with superb attributes, we should appreciate them for what they brought because the perfect boxer will never come along:

For every Robinson there is a LaMotta

For every Mosley there is a Forrest

For every Ali there is a Frazier

For every Chavez their is a Whitaker or Taylor

For every Leonard there is a Duran

For every Jones Jnr there is someone who will beat him when he is older, weight drained and is able to exploit his lack of basic fundamental skills like Tarver


Mayweather will be beaten soon enough too! A certain aggressive, high workrate southpaw might well be his stylistic nightmare!
This is all true, but I think you took the idea of building "The Perfect Boxer" a little too literally (yes, I realize that this is the title of the thread, but I meant something a bit different). What I meant was for you to select the people you think are the best of all time (Pound-for-Pound, Prime-for-Prime, Time-for-Time) in each of these fields, which would theoretically, if put together somehow, result in a perfect boxer. I am well aware that no-one will ever come along who combines all of these; that is obvious.

Last edited by GameGod; 07-23-2010 at 08:33 AM.
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