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#1
Old 05-23-2011, 02:33 AM
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Default Let's look at Joe Calzaghe's supposed "greatness"!

People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year.

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?
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#2
Old 05-23-2011, 02:46 AM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year.

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?

Wow, I know there are a few posters whose corn flakes you just pissed into.
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#3
Old 05-23-2011, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post

Wow, I know there are a few posters whose corn flakes you just pissed into.
hahaha honestly I know I'm one of the people notorious for arguing with Joe nuthuggers but I honestly didn't think it would be this bad haha. Since he had 20 defenses around the same time Svette Okke did I wanted to see who fought the better competition. I mean I knew Hopkins fought a few unranked people during his 20 defenses but DAMN! Joe fought like 16! haha

I think this brings up the argument, is Joe really even the greatest middleweight of all time? Roy Jones & James Toney both did as much as Calzaghe in ALOT less fights lol So will the winner of Ward-Froch, except they'll unify the whole division in lesser fights once they expose Bute ha.
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#4
Old 05-23-2011, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year.

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?
This made me laugh, hard!!
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#5
Old 05-23-2011, 04:57 AM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
hahaha honestly I know I'm one of the people notorious for arguing with Joe nuthuggers but I honestly didn't think it would be this bad haha. Since he had 20 defenses around the same time Svette Okke did I wanted to see who fought the better competition. I mean I knew Hopkins fought a few unranked people during his 20 defenses but DAMN! Joe fought like 16! haha

I think this brings up the argument, is Joe really even the greatest middleweight of all time? Roy Jones & James Toney both did as much as Calzaghe in ALOT less fights lol So will the winner of Ward-Froch, except they'll unify the whole division in lesser fights once they expose Bute ha.

I think Calzaghe is a good fighter in a h2h sense, but his resume is crap and that holds him back from being among the elites. I wouldn't argue with both Roy and Toney being ranked above him at 168.
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#6
Old 05-23-2011, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year.

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?
Nate:

The problem with your argument is you're (and you're not the first to use this flawed argument) using annual ratings (i.e. the ratings at the end of each of those years). That's not the same as what dudes were rated when they fought Joe. For instance, he beat Woodhall in 2000 and Woodhall ended the year unrated. Look back at 1999...Woodhall was still top ten at the end of the year. He lost to Joe (in a good fight...you should see it if you have not) and subsequently hung them up. Then he fell out of the ratings.

While not a particularly strong win, Manfredo was rated 10th by Ring entering the Calzaghe fight.

Bika may or may not have been rated for instance by Ring at the time, but he was coming off a strong look against Beyer and has been a perennial contender for years now.
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Old 05-23-2011, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year.

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?
Im lovin this post Nate, i hate Joe but i never realised it was quite as pathetic as this! He slaps, he windmills and he seems to think that squeaking by a 40 odd year old Hopkins (i thought he lost) and beating a shell of what was once Roy Jones makes him a Great fighter, they both dropped his ass too, even Old dead Roy! Lacy? Who!?? BUM!Eubank was a good win even at that stage of his career but nothing special by then, Kessler is very good but basic and he gave Zag some problems while fighting with an injured hand from the first bell and has since beeen whooped by Ward

Joe was and is a punk biitch
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Old 05-23-2011, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year.

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?


AT SMW (a division laregly void of names, and almost completely void of career fighters at the weight,)
yes, he's one of the best to ever lace them up at SMW


for calzaghe i place a good deal of emphasis on the tape i've seen of the performances he has givenl, as opposed to placing the most weight on the names on his ledger. he was a hell of a fighter who knew how to win with the tools god gave him.

he SMASHED jeff lacy
absolutely crushed him. essentially ended his career over 12 rounds. lacy was being billed by showtime as the next tyson, and he was knocking everybody out brutally (stopped vanderpool, robin ried, pemberton, other regular names at the top of the division at the time)
lacy pissed blood after that fight
and his face never looked the same

he finally got roy in the ring and smashed him. you cant flag calzaghe for roy being shot, or for roy not taking the fight until he was shot.
got bernard in the ring and beat him (pretty convincingly in my eyes. close calzaghe decision,)
and since then bernard has proven he's got plenty in the tank



if joe calzaghe had the opportunity to fight the big names earlier in his career he would have. maybe he'd lose, maybe he'd win
but he's one of the most confident men i've ever come across in boxing and certainly never "ducked" anybody simply on the merits of their talents or superiority
so we cant flag him for that
talk to his promotor and his team for not getting him big fights until late in hi career


joe's not the first MW/SMW to labor overseas without much competition until the end of his career
they build these guys into domestic draws and hope to get a shot at a big fight in the states
or they keep up with a good thing and keep them at home and risk little by matching them soft and often


unlike ottke, abraham, even dzinsziruk, etc
calzaghe could ****ing fight and was a world beater

ottke stayed home because he sucked and needed corrupt refs and judges
abraham was ballsy enough to leave but got crushed once he hit world level talent

joe stepped up in the states (or against american fighters with great reputations) and won



in a division largely void of great career fighters
yes, joe calzaghe is among the best to ever fight at the weight.
and a hall of famer



solid bit of digging though on calzaghe's resume
will green k that when i get the opportunity

Last edited by New England; 05-23-2011 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 05-23-2011, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by crold1 View Post
Nate:

The problem with your argument is you're (and you're not the first to use this flawed argument) using annual ratings (i.e. the ratings at the end of each of those years). That's not the same as what dudes were rated when they fought Joe. For instance, he beat Woodhall in 2000 and Woodhall ended the year unrated. Look back at 1999...Woodhall was still top ten at the end of the year. He lost to Joe (in a good fight...you should see it if you have not) and subsequently hung them up. Then he fell out of the ratings.

While not a particularly strong win, Manfredo was rated 10th by Ring entering the Calzaghe fight.

Bika may or may not have been rated for instance by Ring at the time, but he was coming off a strong look against Beyer and has been a perennial contender for years now.
Wrong, the only person that helps is Woodhall. Everybody else was still unranked. If you count him thats still only 6 ranked fighters. Out of 21...seriously?
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Old 05-23-2011, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
Wrong, the only person that helps is Woodhall. Everybody else was still unranked. If you count him thats still only 6 ranked fighters. Out of 21...seriously?
Helps? Not what I was getting at. As a raw # of rated fighters, looking at one month of 12 misses ratings going into fights (like Manfredo). His # will still be meh, but you have to go through every month of ratings to get the right one. What you have ain't it.
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