Bookmark Website  | Free Registration  | The Team
Boxing Champions |  Boxing Schedule |  Boxing Video  |  Boxing History   |  Pound For Pound  | Lounge  | The Wire |  Audio  | Arcade

Navigation
Go Back   Boxing Forum > Boxing Forums > Boxing History
Reply
Thread Navigation

#1
Old 05-23-2011, 02:33 AM
$BloodyNate$
GUCCI
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hairy Cooch
Age: 22
Posts: 9,242
Rep Power: 24 $BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 1,007,003.00
Bank: 129,028,845,768.20
Total Points: 129,029,852,771.19
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest 
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest 
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest 
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest Happy Birthday :) - Bossy 
Hepatitis C - Spray_resistant Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - -jose- 
Default Let's look at Joe Calzaghe's supposed "greatness"!

People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year.

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?
Reply With Quote
$BloodyNate$ is offline
Advertisements
>>>TO REMOVE THESE ADS, PLEASE REGISTER HERE FOR FREE<<<
#2
Old 05-23-2011, 02:46 AM
JAB5239
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Statesville, NC
Posts: 20,621
Rep Power: 0 JAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 81,303.45
Bank: 19,946,911,790,948.20
Total Points: 19,946,911,872,251.65
For giving me a chance to learn from the best. - DWiens421 For posting endless wisdom - Massage Queen keep dropping knowledge jabs - Makavelli To my friend Jab. One of the SUPERstars of Boxingscene. - BattlingNelson A toast homey. Here's to one of the site's best posters. - mangler 
Keeping History Alive - 0Rooster4Life0 Although we may disagree, I completely understand you. - Dominicano Soy! A lucky charm 4 ya homey - mangler To my boy JAB for keeping it real at all times - Kevin Jesus To a cool guy - Stoppage 
for being a heavyweight in history section - led For a friend and a guy who really knows his stuff. - Lorily Great Poster and Moderator. - Barnburner For your boxing knowledge and insightful threads. - Barnburner For being a noble gent and for top posts! - Sugarj 
To one of the nicest members on this forum. Knows boxing also! - Terry A For all the Boxing knowledge shared - BulgariasFinest For a great guy - jazluvr Thanks for your continued friendship &amp; for sharing your wealth of boxing knowledge w/ us! - Terry A Cheers mate. Loving the section. - BennyST 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year.

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?

Wow, I know there are a few posters whose corn flakes you just pissed into.
Reply With Quote
JAB5239 is offline
#3
Old 05-23-2011, 03:02 AM
$BloodyNate$
GUCCI
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hairy Cooch
Age: 22
Posts: 9,242
Rep Power: 24 $BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 1,007,003.00
Bank: 129,028,845,768.20
Total Points: 129,029,852,771.19
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest 
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest 
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest 
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest Happy Birthday :) - Bossy 
Hepatitis C - Spray_resistant Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - -jose- 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post

Wow, I know there are a few posters whose corn flakes you just pissed into.
hahaha honestly I know I'm one of the people notorious for arguing with Joe nuthuggers but I honestly didn't think it would be this bad haha. Since he had 20 defenses around the same time Svette Okke did I wanted to see who fought the better competition. I mean I knew Hopkins fought a few unranked people during his 20 defenses but DAMN! Joe fought like 16! haha

I think this brings up the argument, is Joe really even the greatest middleweight of all time? Roy Jones & James Toney both did as much as Calzaghe in ALOT less fights lol So will the winner of Ward-Froch, except they'll unify the whole division in lesser fights once they expose Bute ha.
Reply With Quote
$BloodyNate$ is offline
#4
Old 05-23-2011, 03:13 AM
Rip Chudd
1 John 2:22
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 7,631
Rep Power: 31 Rip Chudd has a reputation beyond reputeRip Chudd has a reputation beyond reputeRip Chudd has a reputation beyond reputeRip Chudd has a reputation beyond reputeRip Chudd has a reputation beyond reputeRip Chudd has a reputation beyond reputeRip Chudd has a reputation beyond reputeRip Chudd has a reputation beyond reputeRip Chudd has a reputation beyond reputeRip Chudd has a reputation beyond reputeRip Chudd has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 100,623.92
Bank: 948,928,615,903,365,376.00
Total Points: 948,928,615,903,465,984.00
Happy Holidays Chip! - Lorily Yeah that's right - Rip Chudd Lollllllllllllllll drink it down with some pepsi - -Kev- e-billionaire - MANIAC310 for being richer than me for a couple hours - MANIAC310 
Cheers! - iBreakbeat Just have a beer bro - led Cookie! - MANIAC310 one of my favorite Christians in the lounge :D - MANIAC310 Splendid use of your Javelin out there!!! - Jedi Vader 
twenty! - MANIAC310 Thnx again homie.. - the mesiah Thanks for the points - blacraven have a Happy and safe New Years bro! - jose830 thanks bro! :beerchug: - jose830 
thanks for donating to the Superbowl Jackpot points will be returned if nobody wins :beerchug: - jose830 :luvbed: - jose830 
Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - Black Ranger Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - MANIAC310 Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - Robin Hood World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - Sir TomJones World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - Sir TomJones 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - codey 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year.

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?
This made me laugh, hard!!
Reply With Quote
Rip Chudd is offline
#5
Old 05-23-2011, 04:57 AM
JAB5239
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Statesville, NC
Posts: 20,621
Rep Power: 0 JAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond reputeJAB5239 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 81,303.45
Bank: 19,946,911,790,948.20
Total Points: 19,946,911,872,251.65
For giving me a chance to learn from the best. - DWiens421 For posting endless wisdom - Massage Queen keep dropping knowledge jabs - Makavelli To my friend Jab. One of the SUPERstars of Boxingscene. - BattlingNelson A toast homey. Here's to one of the site's best posters. - mangler 
Keeping History Alive - 0Rooster4Life0 Although we may disagree, I completely understand you. - Dominicano Soy! A lucky charm 4 ya homey - mangler To my boy JAB for keeping it real at all times - Kevin Jesus To a cool guy - Stoppage 
for being a heavyweight in history section - led For a friend and a guy who really knows his stuff. - Lorily Great Poster and Moderator. - Barnburner For your boxing knowledge and insightful threads. - Barnburner For being a noble gent and for top posts! - Sugarj 
To one of the nicest members on this forum. Knows boxing also! - Terry A For all the Boxing knowledge shared - BulgariasFinest For a great guy - jazluvr Thanks for your continued friendship &amp; for sharing your wealth of boxing knowledge w/ us! - Terry A Cheers mate. Loving the section. - BennyST 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest 
Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Tha_Greatest 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
hahaha honestly I know I'm one of the people notorious for arguing with Joe nuthuggers but I honestly didn't think it would be this bad haha. Since he had 20 defenses around the same time Svette Okke did I wanted to see who fought the better competition. I mean I knew Hopkins fought a few unranked people during his 20 defenses but DAMN! Joe fought like 16! haha

I think this brings up the argument, is Joe really even the greatest middleweight of all time? Roy Jones & James Toney both did as much as Calzaghe in ALOT less fights lol So will the winner of Ward-Froch, except they'll unify the whole division in lesser fights once they expose Bute ha.

I think Calzaghe is a good fighter in a h2h sense, but his resume is crap and that holds him back from being among the elites. I wouldn't argue with both Roy and Toney being ranked above him at 168.
Reply With Quote
JAB5239 is offline
#6
Old 05-23-2011, 06:33 AM
crold1
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,500
Rep Power: 23 crold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 10,185,699.72
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 10,185,699.72
I totally agree with your p4p rankings, Pac is definitely above Floyd. - Neutral 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year.

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?
Nate:

The problem with your argument is you're (and you're not the first to use this flawed argument) using annual ratings (i.e. the ratings at the end of each of those years). That's not the same as what dudes were rated when they fought Joe. For instance, he beat Woodhall in 2000 and Woodhall ended the year unrated. Look back at 1999...Woodhall was still top ten at the end of the year. He lost to Joe (in a good fight...you should see it if you have not) and subsequently hung them up. Then he fell out of the ratings.

While not a particularly strong win, Manfredo was rated 10th by Ring entering the Calzaghe fight.

Bika may or may not have been rated for instance by Ring at the time, but he was coming off a strong look against Beyer and has been a perennial contender for years now.
Reply With Quote
crold1 is offline
#7
Old 05-23-2011, 06:48 AM
The Surgeon
Days Of Glory
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SCOTLAND
Age: 29
Posts: 15,407
Rep Power: 54 The Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeThe Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeThe Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeThe Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeThe Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeThe Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeThe Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeThe Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeThe Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeThe Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeThe Surgeon has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 112,984,869,451.69
Bank: 159,983,745,021.83
Total Points: 272,968,614,473.52
Happy 18th  Birthday, Braveheart - jreckoning Yes, Cheers Amigo! - anonymousboxing Thanks for your support - Massage Queen toasting the anglo-scottish alliance - mr.crust Cotto = The man - Animalistic 
Keep visiting the History Section man! - Barnburner To one of  the really good guys in the History section. - Terry A For my best boxing scene mate - BigStereotype Who the ***k is HALGER ????? - McGoorty I know how much the scottish love their flowers so I thought I'd be nice and get you one. - eli porter 
congrats on your first article for KO Digest - fitefanSHO Green :) - dancovboxer cheers - hhs661 CHEERS MATE !!! - BERNIE'S CORNER jaja! pa la victoria de cotto! - Sin City 
For Cotto! - 120 Cheers - typeone Happy New Year! - Scott9945 Cpngrats - typeone Merry Christmas! - TartanSoldier 
Autism - The Surgeon Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - The Surgeon Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - The Surgeon Children with Disabilities - Parkinson's Disease - VACTERL - Young Onset Parkinson's Association - The Surgeon 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year.

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?
Im lovin this post Nate, i hate Joe but i never realised it was quite as pathetic as this! He slaps, he windmills and he seems to think that squeaking by a 40 odd year old Hopkins (i thought he lost) and beating a shell of what was once Roy Jones makes him a Great fighter, they both dropped his ass too, even Old dead Roy! Lacy? Who!?? BUM!Eubank was a good win even at that stage of his career but nothing special by then, Kessler is very good but basic and he gave Zag some problems while fighting with an injured hand from the first bell and has since beeen whooped by Ward

Joe was and is a punk biitch
Reply With Quote
The Surgeon is offline
#8
Old 05-23-2011, 07:20 AM
New England
Heavy Duty
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Boston.
Posts: 26,979
Rep Power: 100 New England has a reputation beyond reputeNew England has a reputation beyond reputeNew England has a reputation beyond reputeNew England has a reputation beyond reputeNew England has a reputation beyond reputeNew England has a reputation beyond reputeNew England has a reputation beyond reputeNew England has a reputation beyond reputeNew England has a reputation beyond reputeNew England has a reputation beyond reputeNew England has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 6,002,681,643,650.98
Bank: 105,601,273,890,669.31
Total Points: 111,603,955,534,320.31
Congrats on 3000 First Class Posts buddy! - The Surgeon Merry Christmas - The Surgeon for a great poster! - sweetpea87 Drinks on me brother - BoxingGenius27 I hate boxing too, lmaaoooooooooooo - Sweet Pea 50 
thanks for the green...always enjoy reading your post...green you once I can again... - jose830 great poster award - jazluvr Merry Christmas bro. Kick back and enjoy. Surround yourself with your loved ones and have a cold one. - deanrw Happy Holidays  New England - !! AI-Holmes!! Ma nigguh, you should come to Ol' England. - D-MiZe 
for entering the weed thread! - HUGH JASS BoxingScene's Educator-in-chief - Dr Rumack i didn't know you live in that area affected, my heart goes out to you...stay strong homie - jose830 #freeNewEnglang - thuggery Coming home on parole brew. - Sweet Pea 50 
top poster and cool story in my thread of how you first joined boxingscene. - HUGH JASS happy independence day you zulu warrior!!! - HUGH JASS For the fitness and nutrition advice, thanks. - jas A top poster - jas For being a roided up freakazoid - Cuauhtémoc1520 
Childhood Cancer - khepesh Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - jazluvr World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - jose830 Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - jose830 World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - -jose- 
Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - -jose- Childhood Cancer - sugarsmosley 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
People want to say Calzaghe has a great undefeated record, GREATEST SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT EVER right? Well I took a look at the ring magazines top 10 super middleweights since 1997 when Joe first became a top super middleweight by beating a 31 Chris Eubank who arguably wasn't even a top fighter anymore. It was for a vacant title.

Feel free to check my research for yourself. Here. Just go down and check the annual rankings of the year.

1998: Joes ranked #2.
Fought: Branko Sobot(unranked), Juan Ferreyra(unranked)

1999: Joes ranked #2
Fought: Robin Reid(ranked #9, NEVER REMATCHED after controversial win), Rick Thornberry(unranked),

2000: Ranked #2
Fought: David Starie(unranked), Omar Shieka(unranked), Richie Woodhall(unranked)

2001: Ranked #2
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked), Will McIntyre(unranked)

2002: Ranked #1 because Svettes challengers got worse then Joes..
Fought: Charles Brewer(ranked #6), Miguel Jimenez(unranked), Tocker Pudwill(unranked)

2003: Ranked #1
Fought: Bryon Mitchell(ranked #6)

2004: Ranked #1
Fought: Mger Mkrtchyan(unranked), Kabery Salem(unranked)

2005: Ranked #1
Fought: Mario Viet(unranked rematch), Evans Ashira(unranked)

2006: ranked #1
Fought: Jeff Lacey(#3), Sakio Bika(unranked)

2007: Ranked #1
Fought: Peter Manfredo(unranked), Mikkel Kessler(#2)

2008: Moved to Light Heavyweight
Fought: Bernard Hopkins(#1), Roy Jones Jr(unranked seriously shot legend)

So were saying somebody who fought 5 top 10 ranked opponents in 21 defenses when he was ranked 1 or 2, and only 2 of them were top 5, is an ATG? 5 years of his prime were against unranked opponents.

Hopkins is his best win who was in his 40's. It's still a great win because of what Hopkins just did but Hopkins didn't have the speed he once had. Obviously lost a step, gave Joe the fight of his life and arguably beat him on technique alone. Then Joe never rematched to settle the score once and for all.

Instead he fought Roy Jones who was out of his prime after he got KO'd by Johnson. He was seriously shot, no speed or reflexes anymore, came off a win against shot blown up Trinidad.

So LMAO, is this really what you want to call ATG?


AT SMW (a division laregly void of names, and almost completely void of career fighters at the weight,)
yes, he's one of the best to ever lace them up at SMW


for calzaghe i place a good deal of emphasis on the tape i've seen of the performances he has givenl, as opposed to placing the most weight on the names on his ledger. he was a hell of a fighter who knew how to win with the tools god gave him.

he SMASHED jeff lacy
absolutely crushed him. essentially ended his career over 12 rounds. lacy was being billed by showtime as the next tyson, and he was knocking everybody out brutally (stopped vanderpool, robin ried, pemberton, other regular names at the top of the division at the time)
lacy pissed blood after that fight
and his face never looked the same

he finally got roy in the ring and smashed him. you cant flag calzaghe for roy being shot, or for roy not taking the fight until he was shot.
got bernard in the ring and beat him (pretty convincingly in my eyes. close calzaghe decision,)
and since then bernard has proven he's got plenty in the tank



if joe calzaghe had the opportunity to fight the big names earlier in his career he would have. maybe he'd lose, maybe he'd win
but he's one of the most confident men i've ever come across in boxing and certainly never "ducked" anybody simply on the merits of their talents or superiority
so we cant flag him for that
talk to his promotor and his team for not getting him big fights until late in hi career


joe's not the first MW/SMW to labor overseas without much competition until the end of his career
they build these guys into domestic draws and hope to get a shot at a big fight in the states
or they keep up with a good thing and keep them at home and risk little by matching them soft and often


unlike ottke, abraham, even dzinsziruk, etc
calzaghe could ****ing fight and was a world beater

ottke stayed home because he sucked and needed corrupt refs and judges
abraham was ballsy enough to leave but got crushed once he hit world level talent

joe stepped up in the states (or against american fighters with great reputations) and won



in a division largely void of great career fighters
yes, joe calzaghe is among the best to ever fight at the weight.
and a hall of famer



solid bit of digging though on calzaghe's resume
will green k that when i get the opportunity

Last edited by New England; 05-23-2011 at 08:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
New England is offline
#9
Old 05-23-2011, 07:35 AM
$BloodyNate$
GUCCI
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hairy Cooch
Age: 22
Posts: 9,242
Rep Power: 24 $BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute$BloodyNate$ has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 1,007,003.00
Bank: 129,028,845,768.20
Total Points: 129,029,852,771.19
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest 
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest 
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest 
No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest No Message - Tha_Greatest Happy Birthday :) - Bossy 
Hepatitis C - Spray_resistant Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - -jose- 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crold1 View Post
Nate:

The problem with your argument is you're (and you're not the first to use this flawed argument) using annual ratings (i.e. the ratings at the end of each of those years). That's not the same as what dudes were rated when they fought Joe. For instance, he beat Woodhall in 2000 and Woodhall ended the year unrated. Look back at 1999...Woodhall was still top ten at the end of the year. He lost to Joe (in a good fight...you should see it if you have not) and subsequently hung them up. Then he fell out of the ratings.

While not a particularly strong win, Manfredo was rated 10th by Ring entering the Calzaghe fight.

Bika may or may not have been rated for instance by Ring at the time, but he was coming off a strong look against Beyer and has been a perennial contender for years now.
Wrong, the only person that helps is Woodhall. Everybody else was still unranked. If you count him thats still only 6 ranked fighters. Out of 21...seriously?
Reply With Quote
$BloodyNate$ is offline
#10
Old 05-23-2011, 07:52 AM
crold1
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,500
Rep Power: 23 crold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond reputecrold1 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 10,185,699.72
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 10,185,699.72
I totally agree with your p4p rankings, Pac is definitely above Floyd. - Neutral 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedatpkid View Post
Wrong, the only person that helps is Woodhall. Everybody else was still unranked. If you count him thats still only 6 ranked fighters. Out of 21...seriously?
Helps? Not what I was getting at. As a raw # of rated fighters, looking at one month of 12 misses ratings going into fights (like Manfredo). His # will still be meh, but you have to go through every month of ratings to get the right one. What you have ain't it.
Reply With Quote
crold1 is offline
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
"greatness"!, calzaghe's, let's, supposed

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Privacy Policy - Submit News - Feedback - Site Map - Advertise with Us

Copyright © 2003-2013 BoxingScene LLC All rights reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:25 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.