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#1
Old 11-09-2013, 01:49 PM
Mikhnienko
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Default Greatest Light Heavyweight ever Charles or Greb?

So the other day i came across Cliff's Top 25 Light Heavyweights All Time list from a few years ago and was initially shocked to see Harry Greb outside the top 10. I decided to compile his accomplishments in the division so i could compare it myself thinking i may be overestimating what he did there. Ezzard Charles was #1 so i used him to see how far Greb was from the greatest ever.

Ezzard Charles significant victories at Light Heavyweight

Moore 3 wins
Bivins 3 wins
Marshall 2 wins
Maxim 2 wins
Christifordis
Smith 2 wins
Yarosz (It was the second last fight of his career)

Victories over four Light Heavyweight Champions/Titlists accounting for 9 wins

* Also faced Light Heavyweight Champions Gus Lesnevich and Harold Johnson but both took place at Heavyweight beating Gus and losing to Harold.

Harry Greb significant victories at Light Heavyweight

Tunney 2 wins
Loughren 4 wins
Gibbons 2 wins (Tommy was 165lbs & 171lbs for these fights)
Rosenbloom
Dillon 2 wins
Levinsky 6 wins
Slatterly
Mctigue 2 wins
Miske 2 wins
Norfolk
Wilson
Delaney 3 wins
Bogash
Wiggins 8 wins (held wins over M.Gibbons, Flowers, Delaney, Risko twice)

Victories over seven Light Heavyweight Champions/Titlists accounting for 18 wins

Number of wins against Light Heavyweights ranked inside the Top 20 All Time

Charles beat three Lightheavyweights ranked inside the top 20 for 8 wins (Moore #3, Bivins #8, Maxin #20)

Greb beat four Lightheavyweights ranked inside the top 20 for 9 wins (Tunney #4, Loughren #6, Rosenbloom #9, Dillon #15)

No matter which valuable category you look to as a measuring stick it appears that Greb's achievements are more numerous and impressive. So Charles has 14 significant wins in the division while for Greb if we only include the Champions/Titlist he holds 18 victories over them.

Aside from his accomplishments take into consideration that he was a 5'8 natural Middleweight that was blind in one eye from late 1921 onwards. He also compiled these victories while fighting in the Middleweight and Heavyweight divisions all at the same time and fighting more than 30 and 40 bouts during a 12 month period for some of these years.

After looking over all of this its impossible to not have Harry Greb inside your top 10, nonsensical to not have him inside your top 5 and personally i don't see any way to rank Charles ahead of him at a Light Heavyweight.

Anyways i did this to satisfy my own curiosity but found it rather interesting so decided to share.

Last edited by Mikhnienko; 11-09-2013 at 02:11 PM.
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#2
Old 11-09-2013, 02:00 PM
Panamaniac
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Just off the top of my head (without any research), I request permission to drop two names: Bob Foster and Michael Spinks.

Last edited by Panamaniac; 11-09-2013 at 02:02 PM.
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#3
Old 11-09-2013, 02:10 PM
Sugar Adam Ali
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panamaniac View Post
Just off the top of my head (without any research), I request permission to drop two names: Bob Foster and Michael Spinks.
I totally agree,,,,, I have spinks #1 IMO,,,

Greb and charles were both great fighters, and top 5 no doubt,,

IMO

1. spinks
2. Ezzard
3. Greb
4. Foster
5. moore or jones

Going by H2H i think spinks would beat ezzard and greb and foster,, If going by just pure resume,, obviously greb and then charles have the best resumes by far,,,,

Foster was a great champ, but he is just outside the top 3 for me,,, I dont think his skills match up with the other guys mentioned,,, Foster was a huge puncher and skillful, but i think he would struggle with these guys especially if he could land his huge power shots,,, Greb, spinks, charles are all tricky enough to smother or nullify the power, IMO
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Old 11-09-2013, 02:15 PM
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I'd have Jinx Spinks first.
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#5
Old 11-09-2013, 02:32 PM
Mikhnienko
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar Adam Ali View Post
I totally agree,,,,, I have spinks #1 IMO,,,

Greb and charles were both great fighters, and top 5 no doubt,,

IMO

1. spinks
2. Ezzard
3. Greb
4. Foster
5. moore or jones

Going by H2H i think spinks would beat ezzard and greb and foster,, If going by just pure resume,, obviously greb and then charles have the best resumes by far,,,,

Foster was a great champ, but he is just outside the top 3 for me,,, I dont think his skills match up with the other guys mentioned,,, Foster was a huge puncher and skillful, but i think he would struggle with these guys especially if he could land his huge power shots,,, Greb, spinks, charles are all tricky enough to smother or nullify the power, IMO
Well Spinks beat three Titlists Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Dwight Muhammad Qawi and Marvin Johnson but none of them are top 20 all time, Qawi is closest at #24. Charles beat three inside the top 20 and two inside the top 10 while Greb has four inside the top 20 and three inside the top 10.

Spinks has 10 title defenses while Greb has 18 victories coming against Light Heavyweight Champions or Titlists i don't see how Spinks could top either of them.
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#6
Old 11-09-2013, 05:14 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhnienko View Post
So the other day i came across Cliff's Top 25 Light Heavyweights All Time list from a few years ago and was initially shocked to see Harry Greb outside the top 10. I decided to compile his accomplishments in the division so i could compare it myself thinking i may be overestimating what he did there. Ezzard Charles was #1 so i used him to see how far Greb was from the greatest ever.

Ezzard Charles significant victories at Light Heavyweight

Moore 3 wins
Bivins 3 wins
Marshall 2 wins
Maxim 2 wins
Christifordis
Smith 2 wins
Yarosz (It was the second last fight of his career)

Victories over four Light Heavyweight Champions/Titlists accounting for 9 wins

* Also faced Light Heavyweight Champions Gus Lesnevich and Harold Johnson but both took place at Heavyweight beating Gus and losing to Harold.

Harry Greb significant victories at Light Heavyweight

Tunney 2 winsLoughren 4 wins
Gibbons 2 wins (Tommy was 165lbs & 171lbs for these fights)
Rosenbloom
Dillon 2 wins
Levinsky 6 wins
Slatterly
Mctigue 2 wins
Miske 2 wins
Norfolk
Wilson
Delaney 3 wins
Bogash
Wiggins 8 wins (held wins over M.Gibbons, Flowers, Delaney, Risko twice)

Victories over seven Light Heavyweight Champions/Titlists accounting for 18 wins

Number of wins against Light Heavyweights ranked inside the Top 20 All Time

Charles beat three Lightheavyweights ranked inside the top 20 for 8 wins (Moore #3, Bivins #8, Maxin #20)

Greb beat four Lightheavyweights ranked inside the top 20 for 9 wins (Tunney #4, Loughren #6, Rosenbloom #9, Dillon #15)

No matter which valuable category you look to as a measuring stick it appears that Greb's achievements are more numerous and impressive. So Charles has 14 significant wins in the division while for Greb if we only include the Champions/Titlist he holds 18 victories over them.

Aside from his accomplishments take into consideration that he was a 5'8 natural Middleweight that was blind in one eye from late 1921 onwards. He also compiled these victories while fighting in the Middleweight and Heavyweight divisions all at the same time and fighting more than 30 and 40 bouts during a 12 month period for some of these years.

After looking over all of this its impossible to not have Harry Greb inside your top 10, nonsensical to not have him inside your top 5 and personally i don't see any way to rank Charles ahead of him at a Light Heavyweight.

Anyways i did this to satisfy my own curiosity but found it rather interesting so decided to share.

Greb only beat Tunney once.

Both are legends. But for me Charles's victories over Archie Moore alone take him to the top of any light heavyweight listing.
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Old 11-09-2013, 05:33 PM
Sugar Adam Ali
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhnienko View Post
Well Spinks beat three Titlists Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Dwight Muhammad Qawi and Marvin Johnson but none of them are top 20 all time, Qawi is closest at #24. Charles beat three inside the top 20 and two inside the top 10 while Greb has four inside the top 20 and three inside the top 10.

Spinks has 10 title defenses while Greb has 18 victories coming against Light Heavyweight Champions or Titlists i don't see how Spinks could top either of them.
True,, greb and ezzard have better resumes, but i think head-to-head,, i have spinks #1,,,

Of course going by just straight resume and not h2h, then yes spinks falls behind the other guys
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#8
Old 11-09-2013, 05:39 PM
Ray Corso
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I hold Foster & Spinks high on my list but they both are steppers who need to set up to use their power. Charles & Tunney could move beautifully and score on anyone too. Although Moore was a stepper also his tremendous upper body (head) movement really lets him be in a "boxers catagory" as to movements.
I'm not as experienced evaluating Grebb as I should be so I'll hold my comments as to him personally, his record and longevity speaks for its self.
Maxium gets underated to often but he could box well and got respect also.
Pastrano always gets left out of the Lightheavies, I have no idea why. This guy fought NO stiffs out of the box, he was a beautifull boxer who gave everyone fits. He was stopped twice in 85 bouts and won over terrific foighters. Dundee always held Willie in the highest of light when people spoke about "pure boxer"!

Archie is my favorite, the only man to fight Marciano & Ali more knockout wins than any current champ has fights. Longevity is also spelled MOORE. He can be spoken highly from middleweight to lightheavy and holds his own with anyone. To many young people only know Archie from his latter years against Marciano and thats not fare. Moore adapted to styles and also forced his form on his opponents and was a great man outside the ring too. Ran youth centers and always dedicated time to children in need!

personal favorites' Yaqui Lopez, Matt Franklin (Saad Muhamed), James Scott (Superman) Dwight Braxton (Qwawi), Gene Tunney, James Braddock. Theres more than a few more, the lightheavies have ALOT of fantastic fighters pasing through that division. Ray
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Old 11-09-2013, 05:55 PM
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Billy conn deserves to be in any conversation of great light heavys people forget that he got his shot at Louis by beating rated hw's at light hw poundage.
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Old 11-09-2013, 07:33 PM
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Not all champions are equal and not all champions are better than non-champions, Greb should never be doesn't touch Charles at LHW.
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