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#1
Old 03-28-2010, 04:18 PM
The Hate Giver
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Question I dont get Harry Greb's boxing Record

Just looking at Harry Greb's record at boxrec & it has his record 103-8-3 draws then it has another set of record called NEWSPAPER DECISIONS:

157-12-15 draws.

What is that?

How can we accurately judge a fighter we have not seen fight?
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#2
Old 03-28-2010, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hate Giver View Post
Just looking at Harry Greb's record at boxrec & it has his record 103-8-3 draws then it has another set of record called NEWSPAPER DECISIONS:

157-12-15 draws.

What is that?

How can we accurately judge a fighter we have not seen fight?
Newspaper decisions were quite a feature in that era, no decision was made by the referee so they went with the majority of newspapers reporting.
Re judging a fighter you haven't seen you just have to take a view maybe read some writers who did see them and whose opinion you respect and also take into account fighters that they beat who you have seen. Regarding Greb there is a fair bit of footage of Tunney, Walker and Loughran floating around tha shows them to be great fighters so any figter holding wins over them must himself have been pretty good, no?
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#3
Old 03-28-2010, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hate Giver View Post
Just looking at Harry Greb's record at boxrec & it has his record 103-8-3 draws then it has another set of record called NEWSPAPER DECISIONS:

157-12-15 draws.

What is that?

How can we accurately judge a fighter we have not seen fight?
That's a big problem. Another problem is judging early 20th C fighters from their film as the film from back then was terrible. Recently, for example, there were a few threads in NSB about the Klitschko-Chambers fight. Some people were saying that Klitshcko's hook missed Chamber's head. The problem was in the video.

If we have problem with 21st C video showing the true story imagine the problems that exist in judging fighters from 100 years ago.
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#4
Old 03-29-2010, 01:54 AM
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I can see where the TP is coming from, because I don't think i've ever seen any two listings for Greb that tally up the same.. They all have 299 as a career total, but the W L D statistics always differ.. He fought nearly all of his opponents more than once, some of them 5 or 6 times, and with the exception of Tunney and Flowers who he beat 1 fight a piece, (and Kid Norfolk - 1 win each) he had the better of every exchange..
As for factual information on how good he was, Gene Tunney had to spend a week in bed after losing to him.. He comfortably beat Willie Meehan at least twice, who had the better of Jack Dempsey over 4 fights, aswell as at least 4 victories over Bill Brennan, who'd also lasted 15 with Dempsey.. Although only a middleweight, I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest he may have beaten Dempsey too.. A list of the fighters he holds wins over is mind boggling.. Here's the one's I know about:-

Tiger Flowers - world MW
Tommy Loughran - world LHW champ
Maxie Rosenbloom - world LHW champ
Mike McTigue - world LHW champ
Al McCoy - world MW champ
Mickey Walker - world MW champ
Johnny Wilson - world MW champ
Battling Levinsky - world LHW champ
Jack Dillon - world LHW champ
Jack Delaney - world LHW champ
Battling Levinsky - world LHW champ
Frank Moody - British MW & LHW champ
Roland Todd - British MW champ
Gene Tunney - world HW champ
Jack London - British HW champ
Willie Meehan - HW contender
Kid Norfolk - HW contender
Bill Brennan - HW contender

I'm sure i may have forgotten some too, and there's also a few NC's against top fighters (Mike O'Dowd, a very underrated MW champ falls into this category) but to say that he could have owned the LHW division is a massive understatement..

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#5
Old 03-29-2010, 07:32 AM
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There is also some contention as to the 5 fights with Tunny. Although the official score is 4-1 Tunny, many people believe that Greb deserved the decision in 2 or 3 of those fights. There is no disputing the outcome of the final fight though when Tunny won a decisive victory.

Greb was thought to be blind in one throughout all five fights.
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:25 PM
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Yes, Greb was blind in one eye for the better part of his career. The only footage that exists of him, as I recall, is some training and sparring footage, which really doesn't prove much.

His win over Tunney, I'd say, is probably his most significant one.
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#7
Old 03-29-2010, 04:41 PM
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Gene Tunney (1) – Hall of Famer – World Heavyweight Champion – Beat Dempsey twice
Tommy Loughran (4) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jimmy Slattery (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Maxie Rosenbloom (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jack Dillon (2) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Battling Levinsky (6) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mike McTigue (2) – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mickey Walker (1) – Hall of Famer – World Welterweight & Middleweight Champion
Tiger Flowers Hall of Famer – World Champion Middleweight Champion
Mike Gibbons (1) – Hall of Famer
Tommy Gibbons (2) – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Kid Norfolk (1) – Hall of Famer
Billy Miske (2) – Hall of Famer - Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Jack Blackburn Hall of Famer as a trainer
Al McCoy (2) – World Middleweight Champion
George Chip (2) – World Middleweight Champion
Johnny Wilson (3) – World Middleweight Champion
Eddie McGoorty (1) – Claimed World Middleweight Champion
Willie Meehan (2) – Beat Dempsey twice
Gunboat Smith (2) – Top Heavyweight
Bill Brennan (4) – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Augie Ratner - Defeated four world champions in his career
Young Ahearn
Jeff Smith
Soldier Bartfield
Leo Houck
Tommy Robson
Bartley Madden
Tommy Robson
Joe Borrell
Bob Moha
Chuck Wiggins
Jack Renault
Charley Weinert
Billy Shade
Homer Smith
Lou Bogash
Bryan Downey
Jackie Clark
Jimmy Delaney
Jack Reddick
Roland Todd
Allentown Joe Gans

Last edited by hhascup; 03-29-2010 at 04:48 PM.
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#8
Old 03-29-2010, 07:16 PM
EzzardFan
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Originally Posted by hhascup View Post


Gene Tunney (1) – Hall of Famer – World Heavyweight Champion – Beat Dempsey twice
Tommy Loughran (4) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jimmy Slattery (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Maxie Rosenbloom (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jack Dillon (2) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Battling Levinsky (6) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mike McTigue (2) – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mickey Walker (1) – Hall of Famer – World Welterweight & Middleweight Champion
Tiger Flowers Hall of Famer – World Champion Middleweight Champion
Mike Gibbons (1) – Hall of Famer
Tommy Gibbons (2) – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Kid Norfolk (1) – Hall of Famer
Billy Miske (2) – Hall of Famer - Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Jack Blackburn Hall of Famer as a trainer
Al McCoy (2) – World Middleweight Champion
George Chip (2) – World Middleweight Champion
Johnny Wilson (3) – World Middleweight Champion
Eddie McGoorty (1) – Claimed World Middleweight Champion
Willie Meehan (2) – Beat Dempsey twice
Gunboat Smith (2) – Top Heavyweight
Bill Brennan (4) – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Augie Ratner - Defeated four world champions in his career
Young Ahearn
Jeff Smith
Soldier Bartfield
Leo Houck
Tommy Robson
Bartley Madden
Tommy Robson
Joe Borrell
Bob Moha
Chuck Wiggins
Jack Renault
Charley Weinert
Billy Shade
Homer Smith
Lou Bogash
Bryan Downey
Jackie Clark
Jimmy Delaney
Jack Reddick
Roland Todd
Allentown Joe Gans
In my opinion there is no other boxer with such an amazing pedigree. That man would most likely have been world LHW and world HW champion had he been given a shot at those titles, despite only weighing 160lbs.
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#9
Old 03-30-2010, 05:49 AM
mickey malone
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Originally Posted by EzzardFan View Post
In my opinion there is no other boxer with such an amazing pedigree. That man would most likely have been world LHW and world HW champion had he been given a shot at those titles, despite only weighing 160lbs.
I'll co-sign that..

Thanks to Henry for the complete list of his stunning resume.. I knew there might be the odd 1 or 2 i'd forgotten lol..
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#10
Old 03-30-2010, 01:09 PM
Bundana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhascup View Post


Gene Tunney (1) – Hall of Famer – World Heavyweight Champion – Beat Dempsey twice
Tommy Loughran (4) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jimmy Slattery (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Maxie Rosenbloom (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jack Dillon (2) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Battling Levinsky (6) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mike McTigue (2) – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mickey Walker (1) – Hall of Famer – World Welterweight & Middleweight Champion
Tiger Flowers Hall of Famer – World Champion Middleweight Champion
Mike Gibbons (1) – Hall of Famer
Tommy Gibbons (2) – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Kid Norfolk (1) – Hall of Famer
Billy Miske (2) – Hall of Famer - Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Jack Blackburn Hall of Famer as a trainer
Al McCoy (2) – World Middleweight Champion
George Chip (2) – World Middleweight Champion
Johnny Wilson (3) – World Middleweight Champion
Eddie McGoorty (1) – Claimed World Middleweight Champion
Willie Meehan (2) – Beat Dempsey twice
Gunboat Smith (2) – Top Heavyweight
Bill Brennan (4) – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Augie Ratner - Defeated four world champions in his career
Young Ahearn
Jeff Smith
Soldier Bartfield
Leo Houck
Tommy Robson
Bartley Madden
Tommy Robson
Joe Borrell
Bob Moha
Chuck Wiggins
Jack Renault
Charley Weinert
Billy Shade
Homer Smith
Lou Bogash
Bryan Downey
Jackie Clark
Jimmy Delaney
Jack Reddick
Roland Todd
Allentown Joe Gans
Re the win over Norfolk, I wonder why the IBHOF has it the other way around: "Norfolk dropped the “Human Windmill” in the first round and captured the 10 round newspaper decision"?

Does BoxRec, where the fight is listed as a win for Greb, have one group of historians/experts who votes in Greb's favour - while another group at IBHOF reaches the opposite conclusion (after reviewing the same newspaper reports, I presume)? Seems strange to me... and if the fight was that close, would a draw not be a fair result?
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