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#1
Old 03-21-2010, 11:37 PM
them_apples
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how does the weigh in effect the outcome when pitting fighters up against each other from different eras. Back in the day, a weight class actually meant something, fighters like Jose Napoles came to fight at 144-145, with the fight on the same day he probably only weighed about 147-148 lbs.

How is it fair to match him up against say, a guy like Miguel Cotto, who is around the same height as Napoles, but with an extra day before to weigh in, comes in at around 157.

That's a 10 lb weight difference.

Manny Pacquiao was 146 lbs on fight night, for a fight that was to happen at 130. I'm sure that wasn't very beneficial for him however, but still he was pretty much a WW.

Considering back in the day fighters didn't even always come in at the WW max, often a few lbs under - suggesting the made the weight easy.

I know this isn't a huge factor, for example Hagler always came in pretty light for a MW, but regardless - nobody is cracking his chin anytime soon. However, on paper, Joshua Clottey - who comes in at over 160 in some of his fights would be as big as Marvin Hagler? seeing as they were both 5'9, although Hagler had a significant reach advantage.

just something to think about, or should we put the WW's up against todays Lw's?

EDIT: I know somebody is going to bring up a freak like Jake Lamotta who would cut tons of weight and rehydrate in one day, but let's be honest - it was rare.
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#2
Old 03-22-2010, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by them_apples View Post
how does the weigh in effect the outcome when pitting fighters up against each other from different eras. Back in the day, a weight class actually meant something, fighters like Jose Napoles came to fight at 144-145, with the fight on the same day he probably only weighed about 147-148 lbs.

How is it fair to match him up against say, a guy like Miguel Cotto, who is around the same height as Napoles, but with an extra day before to weigh in, comes in at around 157.

That's a 10 lb weight difference.

Manny Pacquiao was 146 lbs on fight night, for a fight that was to happen at 130. I'm sure that wasn't very beneficial for him however, but still he was pretty much a WW.

Considering back in the day fighters didn't even always come in at the WW max, often a few lbs under - suggesting the made the weight easy.

I know this isn't a huge factor, for example Hagler always came in pretty light for a MW, but regardless - nobody is cracking his chin anytime soon. However, on paper, Joshua Clottey - who comes in at over 160 in some of his fights would be as big as Marvin Hagler? seeing as they were both 5'9, although Hagler had a significant reach advantage.

just something to think about, or should we put the WW's up against todays Lw's?

EDIT: I know somebody is going to bring up a freak like Jake Lamotta who would cut tons of weight and rehydrate in one day, but let's be honest - it was rare.

Day before weigh ins and weight classes are a farce today. Once a fighter makes weight today here should be a cap on how much weight he can put on up until the fight. I hear arguments all the time about how dangerous it is for a fighter to dehydrate themselves to make weight so its only fair to let them play it safe an re-hydrate. Thing is, nobody is forcing them to cut that much weight. If you can't safely make the limit you just shouldn't be fighting there. Its also unfair to fighters who do make the weight with no problems and puts them in danger and at an unfair advantage. I'm all for same day weigh ins being brought back.
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#3
Old 03-22-2010, 11:20 AM
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Here's what I found:

Same-day weigh-ins got tossed by the wayside back in 1983, when Eddie Mustapha Muhammad came in overweight for a light-heavyweight unification match with Michael Spinks. Back in the day, this was a legit superfight with all the attendant hoopla.

Spinks refused to go through with the fight, even after Eddie proposed just making it a nontitle go. Spinks was pissed because, as he said, he sacrificed and trained hard to make the weight, and if Muhammad couldn’t bother to do the same, then screw it ...

The promoter, HBO, the alphabets and the commissions decided that in the future, all weigh-ins would be the day before, so that a cancellation like this would never happen again.

Here's another report:

After the Eddie Mustapha-Michael Spinks unification bout that didn't come off in 1983. Eddie weighed in at 180 & proposed they make it a non-title fight. Spinks told him where to go to because he had sacrificed & lost the weight & felt Eddie should have also.

The fight was canceled & HBO & the Promoters were left holding the bag instead of raking it in for what was a super fight in it's day.

Shortly after that to protect the promoters & networks the alphabets switched to day before weigh-ins for he "health" & "security" of the fighters.

Here’s yet another report:
Published: July 22, 1983
Eddie Mustafa Muhammad issued an apology of sorts yesterday for the cancellation of his light heavyweight title bout against the champion, Michael Spinks, last week.

The bout was canceled after Mustafa Muhammad refused to take off 2 1/2 pounds to make the 175-pound weight limit. ''I realize,'' the boxer said in a statement billed as an apology, ''that had I made an attempt at losing the weight, my status in the boxing world would not have deteriorated as it has.'' When questioned, however, the fighter sounded less than contrite. ''I don't regret what I have done because I am a man of principle,'' he said, ''but someone has to apologize.'

Here's what I found out about the Mancini/Kim affair in 1982:

Just so you know, Kim had to struggle mightily to lose weight on the days prior to the bout with Ray Mancini so that he could weigh in under the Lightweight's 135 pound limit, or, as they say in boxing, "make weight". Prophetically, he wrote the message "kill or be killed" on his Las Vegas hotel room's mirror only days before the bout.

I do believe their were bouts before that that were a day before including:

Sean Curtin worked on the Illinois Commission in 1987 when Chapo Rosario fought Juan Nazario and the weigh in was the day of the fight.
However in December of 1982 when Ossie Ocasio fought Young Joe Louis the weigh in was the night before.

Curtin does think the overweight Mustafa Muhammad Eddie Gregory had a lot to do with weigh-ins the day before.
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#4
Old 03-22-2010, 05:53 PM
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I think it's stupid having the second day weigh in. People still don't make weight and whats the point of even having weight classes.
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Old 03-22-2010, 06:09 PM
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You're correct.

Fighters today generally go down to the lightest weight possible in order to have a size advantage over their opponents. However this can also turn into a disadvantage if the boxer drains himself to make weight, and loses their stamina and strength. See what happened to De La Hoya, Chris Byrd. Pacquiao and Mayweather have also shown that a fighter can compete at their natural weight, and become even better as they don't have to worry about making weight.

About Napoles I'll say that like Hatton, he often ballooned up in weight in between fights and had some difficulties going down to 147 but he had the frame of a lightweight/light welterweight. Today he could probably fight at 135-140 with relative ease and one can only imagine what a monster he could be at those weights.
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Old 03-23-2010, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
You're correct.

Fighters today generally go down to the lightest weight possible in order to have a size advantage over their opponents. However this can also turn into a disadvantage if the boxer drains himself to make weight, and loses their stamina and strength. See what happened to De La Hoya, Chris Byrd. Pacquiao and Mayweather have also shown that a fighter can compete at their natural weight, and become even better as they don't have to worry about making weight.

About Napoles I'll say that like Hatton, he often ballooned up in weight in between fights and had some difficulties going down to 147 but he had the frame of a lightweight/light welterweight. Today he could probably fight at 135-140 with relative ease and one can only imagine what a monster he could be at those weights.

yea that's the funny thing, the fighters that make weight easy seem to have no problems with stamina. Usually a sign they didn't starve themselves in camp either. Pacquiao went 12 rounds throwing over 100 punches per round and was just barely breaking a sweat come round 12. He probably loaded up on a 3000 calorie meal prior. Where as Cotto, who is always trying to cut weight - has huge stamina issues. We might actually see an improvement from him at 154.
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Old 03-24-2010, 03:59 AM
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When I think about fantasy matchups I always try to account for this, but it seems that not many others think it matters, I am glad to see I am not the only one.

Out of curiosity, didn't Mancini-Kim Ki Dook also have something to do with the new weigh in rules?
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Old 03-24-2010, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmute View Post
Out of curiosity, didn't Mancini-Kim Ki Dook also have something to do with the new weigh in rules?
I wrote this above:

Here's what I found out about the Mancini/Kim affair in 1982:

Just so you know, Kim had to struggle mightily to lose weight on the days prior to the bout with Ray Mancini so that he could weigh in under the Lightweight's 135 pound limit, or, as they say in boxing, "make weight". Prophetically, he wrote the message "kill or be killed" on his Las Vegas hotel room's mirror only days before the bout.
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