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Old 03-14-2010, 01:50 PM #1
murmagic murmagic is offline
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Default How High do You rate Jack Johnson in your ATG heavyweight list?

Just wondering where people rate Jack Johnson on there heavyweight list
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Old 03-14-2010, 02:10 PM #2
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behind ali and louis on 3
he was 7 years long champ when he was past his prime.
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Old 03-14-2010, 02:44 PM #3
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I used to have him around the middle of my top 10, like most people. But I've been struggling to find his defining win.

An inactive 44 year old Bob Fitzsimmons - nope
Jim Jeffries after 6 years without a fight - nope
A 5'7", 168 pound Tommy Burns - nope
Middleweight Stanley Ketchel - nope
A young 156 pound Sam Langford (who he ducked along with every other great black fighter when Johnson was champ) - nope

Losing to Marvin Hart while in his prime hurts him.
Getting knocked out twice early in his career, I don't hold too much against him.

Almost 6 1/2 years as champ sounds great, till you look at the quality of the 8 total title defenses (even little Tommy Burns had 10 defenses of similar quality, no one mentions him in any top 10 ATG HW list.)

Sorry, I still have him at the bottom of my top 10, but the more I look, the further he drops.
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Old 03-14-2010, 02:51 PM #4
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Not nearly as highly as most others do. Hank made some real good points, you'd have to say that Ketchel was his best win TBH and that lose to Hart is pretty terrible. In a head to head sense he just wouldn't beat any of the great champions that came after him, Dempsey included.
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Old 03-15-2010, 02:10 PM #5
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Nat Fliescher said,"Johnson was the greatest of all times"
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:45 AM #6
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number three and i would debate my position with anybody.
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Old 03-18-2010, 06:56 AM #7
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By all accounts at the end of the Hart fight Johnson was unscathed and Hart looked like he'd been run over by a train. Scoring wasn't so fair back then remember.

I place him in the top three. Not for wins against Ketchel or Fitzsimmons or Jeffries, but for his wins against the great black heavyweights of the time.
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:35 AM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by £Hank$Moody€ View Post
I used to have him around the middle of my top 10, like most people. But I've been struggling to find his defining win.

An inactive 44 year old Bob Fitzsimmons - nope
Jim Jeffries after 6 years without a fight - nope
A 5'7", 168 pound Tommy Burns - nope
Middleweight Stanley Ketchel - nope
A young 156 pound Sam Langford (who he ducked along with every other great black fighter when Johnson was champ) - nope

Losing to Marvin Hart while in his prime hurts him.
Getting knocked out twice early in his career, I don't hold too much against him.

Almost 6 1/2 years as champ sounds great, till you look at the quality of the 8 total title defenses (even little Tommy Burns had 10 defenses of similar quality, no one mentions him in any top 10 ATG HW list.)

Sorry, I still have him at the bottom of my top 10, but the more I look, the further he drops.
You don't know too much about boxing history, do you?
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:04 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiasco View Post
You don't know too much about boxing history, do you?
Enlighten me please, oh wise one. And by all means, dispute anything I posted.


How do people penalize Jack Dempsey for not fighting black fighters and give Jack Johson, who avoided them like the plague for the 6 1/2 years he was champ, a free pass?

Johnson was the complete antithesis of a great American like Joe Louis. To have JJ as a top 3 ATG HW must surely be a joke.

Last edited by £Hank$Moody€; 03-18-2010 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:02 PM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by £Hank$Moody€ View Post
Enlighten me please, oh wise one. And by all means, dispute anything I posted.


How do people penalize Jack Dempsey for not fighting black fighters and give Jack Johson, who avoided them like the plague for the 6 1/2 years he was champ, a free pass?

Johnson was the complete antithesis of a great American like Joe Louis. To have JJ as a top 3 ATG HW must surely be a joke.
Believe me, I felt it was very selfish and very disrespectful for Johnson to not give any other top black fighter a heavyweight title shot. I felt that Sam Langford, who's one of my favorite fighters of all-time, had the best chance at beating him.

But that doesn't mean he didn't beat any of the top black fighters. In fact, the ones he beat were the same black fighters who were deserving of a title shot.

Here's some of the top black fighters that he beat:

Sam Langford (outweighed by a lot, but still a win)
Sam McVea
Joe Jeannette
Young Peter Jackson
Denver Ed Martin

There's more, as well.

As for your rundown analysis of most of the other fighters he beat, it's atrocious.

Jeffries - The fight the whole world wanted, with a lot of money in it. Jeffries was undefeated and many thought he would beat Johnson.

Burns - Yeah.. discredit Johnson for beating the reigning world champ.. gee.

Ketchel - It was not uncommon for fighters in lower weight classes to challenge for the title. See Fitzsimmons, for example.

He also defeated the light heavyweight champ George Gardner.

In the end, you wrongfully bashed Johnson for:

1) Winning the heavyweight title
2) Beating the former and undefeated heavyweight world champion
3) Beating the former middleweight and heavyweight world champion
4) Defending his title against one of the best fighters of his era and one of the best middleweights of all-time

The only thing I agree with you about is the fact that he didn't give any of the top black fighters a title shot.

Go ahead and rate Johnson wherever you want. But don't expect everyone to believe that Johnson didn't beat great opposition.
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