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Old 01-15-2010, 12:18 PM #1
EzzardFan EzzardFan is offline
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Default Ali post 1971 come back fights - what if...

I like to imagine what would have happened to Ali, if after he'd lost to Frazier he'd gone back to his old trainer Archie Moore and said "OK Archie my legs are gone, show me how to fight without getting hit so much."

Remember that Moore coached Foreman in his comeback and taught him how to use his patented cross arm block.

I like to think that if this had happened Ali could have exited without the brain damage. Thoughts?
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Old 01-15-2010, 12:49 PM #2
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i think in the earnie shavers fight, ali took more power punches than in all his title-fights in 60s together.
too many times he was staying lazy on the ropes in the 70s, i dont think archie moore could have helped him with this.
i still dont know why ali didnt allways fight like in 64 against liston, he just did everything perfect that night.
watch the fight of the century, ali was such an easy target that night.
and he was just 29, his legs werent gone, he was just not the same anymore for some reason, but he still beat anyone he faced in the 70s.
if ali would have fought against liston in 64 like against frazier in 71, he would have ended up like floyd patterson.
still, for me he has easily the best resume of all heavyweights.
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Old 01-15-2010, 01:04 PM #3
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Post 71 Ali had his legs back to fine form come 1973 and 1974. Check out Norton 2 and Frazier 2. Even in Spinks 2 in 1978 Ali was dancing like a fighter much younger, though his punch accuracy wasn't what it was.

As for Archie Moore, do you really think he'd want to train the same guy who knocked him out in 1962? Who walked out on him as trainer before hand because he didn't want to do all the chores like sweeping the gym on top of training?

I do like the cross armed defense though, the only problem with Ali using it is that it can leave body exposed, particularly the left side. Ali, when rope a doping liked to have his elbows protecting his kidney area and his gloves protecting his face, he was always so concerned with his looks. Ali was always going to end up fighting off the ropes because 99% of the time his opponents were the aggressors and he was a fighter who scored well going back.

As for brain damage, frankly Ali in the 70s was still pretty good defensively, it was rare to see him ship huge bombs to the face repeatedly. I dont doubt that the Frazier left hooks in rounds five and six of the Thrilla in Manilla in 1975 and the right handers from Shavers in 1977 may well have contributed to his condition today. But the Berbick fight showed the greatest deterioration in Ali's speach from before and after the fight, he was 39 and overweight. One thing I truely believe is that Ali would end up with some boxing related condition anyway. He always would have fought on until he lost repeatedly. Hell, if he didn't pick up Parkinsons and hadn't lost to Holmes and Berbick I'll bet he'd have come back for Tyson as a 45 year old! Sadly he'd have likely retired with some form of brain damage whatever changes he might have made to his defense.
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:13 PM #4
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That is Rubbish about Shavers doing most damage to Ali... Joe Frazier damaged Ali in Manilla and he done it deliberately, Muhammad Ali also took a terrible beating from Larry Holmes... Arcgie Moore was not with Foreman when George made his comeback, Foremans brother was in his corner then Angelo Dundee came in once George upped his level of competition
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Old 01-15-2010, 02:58 PM #5
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
That is Rubbish about Shavers doing most damage to Ali... Joe Frazier damaged Ali in Manilla and he done it deliberately, Muhammad Ali also took a terrible beating from Larry Holmes... Arcgie Moore was not with Foreman when George made his comeback, Foremans brother was in his corner then Angelo Dundee came in once George upped his level of competition
i dont think u watched the thrilla in manilla.
frazier is just taking the whole time, except the 1 or 2 rounds he won, he didnt do much damage.
ali was tired at the end, thats it.
he took way harder punches from foreman and shavers.
u r right with the holmes fight, it shouldnt have happened, but money talks i guess.
i wish tyson would have fought ali that night, at least tyson had enough power to finish an old ali in the first rounds, larry unfortunately didnt.
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Old 01-15-2010, 03:19 PM #6
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
... Joe Frazier damaged Ali in Manilla and he done it deliberately
Sonny all boxers try and damage the other guy deliberately as SRR said they are in the hurting business.
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Old 01-15-2010, 03:22 PM #7
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Originally Posted by T3dBundy View Post
i dont think u watched the thrilla in manilla.
frazier is just taking the whole time, except the 1 or 2 rounds he won, he didnt do much damage.
ali was tired at the end, thats it.
he took way harder punches from foreman and shavers.
u r right with the holmes fight, it shouldnt have happened, but money talks i guess.
i wish tyson would have fought ali that night, at least tyson had enough power to finish an old ali in the first rounds, larry unfortunately didnt.
Frazier did hurt Ali big time in Manilla.
Remember seeing something years ago by a brain surgeon and he said that the damage is done by the head being shaken from side to side. Frazier was not as big a hitter as Shavers and Foreman but it could be that the amount of punches he landed caused more damage. Also those body shots were murderous.
At the end of the day Ali went on too long he sadly liked the glory too much.
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Old 01-15-2010, 03:25 PM #8
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Would've been interesting to see. But Ali didn't really have good technical defense. He relied more on reflexes. Plus, it was his ability to take punches that allowed him to beat fighters like Foreman.
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Old 01-15-2010, 03:27 PM #9
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Frazier did hurt Ali big time in Manilla.
Remember seeing something years ago by a brain surgeon and he said that the damage is done by the head being shaken from side to side. Frazier was not as big a hitter as Shavers and Foreman but it could be that the amount of punches he landed caused more damage. Also those body shots were murderous.
At the end of the day Ali went on too long he sadly liked the glory too much.
frazier was the one smelling salts to survive once more against ali, he didnt like the idea ali could have stopped him.
if ali retired after manilla, he wouldnt be that sick today, im pretty sure about that.
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Old 01-15-2010, 03:33 PM #10
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frazier was the one smelling salts to survive once more against ali, he didnt like the idea ali could have stopped him.
if ali retired after manilla, he wouldnt be that sick today, im pretty sure about that.
They finished each other off that night in Manilla.
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