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#1
Old 01-14-2010, 06:45 PM
HaglerSteelChin
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Default Best Bare Knuckle-19th Century boxers?

Who are some of the best boxers that fought in that bare knuckle era or those who started bare knuckle and transitioned to the newer eras of boxing? The 10 that come to my mind in no order are:

Jack Mcaudliffe
Tommy Ryan
George Godfrey
James Corbett
Joe Choynski
Bob Fitzsimmons
Non Pareil Dempsey
John Sullivan
Kid Mccoy
Mysterious Billy Smith- some fights in 19th century
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#2
Old 01-14-2010, 07:23 PM
mickey malone
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jack broughton
jem belcher
peter corcoran
tom mollineaux
george taylor
tom paddock
tom spring
bill stevens
john heenan
james figg
tom cannon
james belcher
jack slack
tom sayers
jem ward
harry sellers
bill richmond
bill darts
charlie galagher
dick curtis
tom cribb

Here's a list that i compiled on another thread.. Some of them are from the 18th century though..
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#3
Old 01-14-2010, 07:26 PM
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Outside of Sullivan I wouldn't necessarily call any of them bareknuckle boxers. Even Sullivan only had a few non-gloved bouts and preferred the use of gloves.

Jem Mace
Daniel Mendoza
Tom Cribb

were among the best bareknuckle boxers.
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#4
Old 01-14-2010, 07:44 PM
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I remember a fighter called the Professor Donavan-was he more bare knuckle or glove era? I guess my main question is really how many of these guys are among the top 200 of all time? Old chocalate for example was ducked by sullivan and does that make it hard to place in top 200? Because he was not given a chance to prove himself. In my top 100 i have only like half dozen of these fighters.
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#5
Old 01-14-2010, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaglerSteelChin View Post
I remember a fighter called the Professor Donavan-was he more bare knuckle or glove era? I guess my main question is really how many of these guys are among the top 200 of all time? Old chocalate for example was ducked by sullivan and does that make it hard to place in top 200? Because he was not given a chance to prove himself. In my top 100 i have only like half dozen of these fighters.
Donovan was a bareknuckle boxer. I believe "Old Chocolate" George Godfrey actually turned down a chance to fight John L. Sullivan once, but Sullivan wanted no part of Peter Jackson.

It's difficult to rate them because of the lack of information about the early bareknuckle boxers. The sport was also very different with no gloves and the London Prize Ring/Broughton's rules in effect.

I do rate the men you listed in your opening post though.
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#6
Old 01-14-2010, 08:00 PM
HaglerSteelChin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
Donovan was a bareknuckle boxer. I believe "Old Chocolate" George Godfrey actually turned down a chance to fight John L. Sullivan once, but Sullivan wanted no part of Peter Jackson.

It's difficult to rate them because of the lack of information about the early bareknuckle boxers. The sport was also very different with no gloves and the London Prize Ring/Broughton's rules in effect.

I do rate the men you listed in your opening post though.
Thanks for the info on Mendoza, it seemed he was a pioneer with the use of defensive skills on the sport. In my top 10, people have issue with me putting Gene Tunney at #8 and i rate him high due to influence. I have seen his footage and how made dempsey miss alot. I like to look at more than won-loss record- i like to see how fighters advanced the sport and who they beat. Kid Mccoy and cork screw punch, and Cerefino Garcia inventor of bolo punch(although disputed), the Ali shuffle etc.

I am sure these bare knuckle guys helped advanced the sport and yes its hard to rate them without film footage and even distorted records. I guess that is why the IBHOF have them in their seperate area called "pioneers."
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#7
Old 01-14-2010, 08:09 PM
TheGreatA
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7000 posts, congrats!! - JAB5239 To the LinkMaster! - S a m u r a i Respects to a great poster - Gift Of Gab Props on the picture! :lol1: - Spacey1991 Jussi Jääskeläinen - ЯiZО 
For Busting Rafael Benitez aka Slimey Limey - poet682006 To Celebrate The Exposure Of Rafael Benitez aka Slimey Limey - poet682006 thanks for the lesson! - mellow_mood This gift is for the videos you posted on my Tyson/Patterson thread a while back.  I recently noticed you posted some great interview videos of Patterson on the thread which I missed at the time because I didn’t follow up on checking the responses. - Benny Leonard For doing a great Glen Johnson highlight video! - St Lion 
To a great historian - Stoppage Good debate. No hard feelings. - Method Checker HERES TO YOU LEFTY - markbnlv Thanks for sharing your boxing knowledge. - Talisayen No Message - dancovboxer 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaglerSteelChin View Post
Thanks for the info on Mendoza, it seemed he was a pioneer with the use of defensive skills on the sport. In my top 10, people have issue with me putting Gene Tunney at #8 and i rate him high due to influence. I have seen his footage and how made dempsey miss alot. I like to look at more than won-loss record- i like to see how fighters advanced the sport and who they beat. Kid Mccoy and cork screw punch, and Cerefino Garcia inventor of bolo punch(although disputed), the Ali shuffle etc.

I am sure these bare knuckle guys helped advanced the sport and yes its hard to rate them without film footage and even distorted records. I guess that is why the IBHOF have them in their seperate area called "pioneers."
http://orphanfilmsymposium.blogspot....t-picture.html

This film illustrates the difference of a late 1800's boxer such as Jim Corbett compared to a 1920's boxer like Tunney. Corbett fought like Tunney stylistically but in an entirely different era. Tunney had improved on the punching technique but Corbett surely had all the moves to survive in a tough era of boxing.

Last edited by TheGreatA; 01-14-2010 at 08:13 PM.
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#8
Old 01-14-2010, 11:50 PM
mickey malone
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1000 posts right around the bend...congrats! - JAB5239 For bringing up Schmeling's classy actions! - poet682006 Nothing But Respect For You Mate - 0Rooster4Life0 To a fellow boxing historian - Stoppage For fighting the Wanker Snopkins - HaglerSteelChin 
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Here's some info on Tom Cribb

Born - Hansham, Gloucestershire, England 1781
Died - London 1848
Height - 5'10"
Weight - 199lbs

came to fame aged 24 by beating George Maddox (76 rounds), Tom Blake (20 rounds) and Ikey Pigg (11 rounds)
In his next fight he was beaten by George Nicholls, a puncher from Bristol after 52 rounds..
He bounced back by beating Bill Richmond, a former Negro slave in 90 minutes at Hailsham in Sussex.. This win secured a shot at then champion Jem Belcher on Mousley Hurst on April 8th 1807.. Cribb won in 41 rounds which was timed at 35 mins, so my knowledge of how these fights were actually conducted is futile!
After this he defended successfully against George Horton (25 rds), Bob Gregson (23) and Belcher again (31)
He then had 2 brutal encounters with another American ex-slave, Tom Molineaux, winning both times in 33 & 11 rounds respectively..
After this he retired, only to make a brief comeback after 9 years of inactivity, when he astounded onlookers to KO Jack Carter in less than a minute..
This was his last fight, and he eventually bought The Union Arms public house in Panton street, Piccadilly where he became liked and respected by everyone..
Cribb was buried in Woolwich churchyard where a huge memorial was erected to him by public subscription..
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#9
Old 01-15-2010, 02:08 AM
TheGreatA
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To a great poster!! - abosworth great poster. - Melly-Mel For finding the Guzman stream, when nobody else could. - The_Bringer Just wanted to keep the pattern going Machine - danc1984 One of NSBs best contributors - BostonGuy 
7000 posts, congrats!! - JAB5239 To the LinkMaster! - S a m u r a i Respects to a great poster - Gift Of Gab Props on the picture! :lol1: - Spacey1991 Jussi Jääskeläinen - ЯiZО 
For Busting Rafael Benitez aka Slimey Limey - poet682006 To Celebrate The Exposure Of Rafael Benitez aka Slimey Limey - poet682006 thanks for the lesson! - mellow_mood This gift is for the videos you posted on my Tyson/Patterson thread a while back.  I recently noticed you posted some great interview videos of Patterson on the thread which I missed at the time because I didn’t follow up on checking the responses. - Benny Leonard For doing a great Glen Johnson highlight video! - St Lion 
To a great historian - Stoppage Good debate. No hard feelings. - Method Checker HERES TO YOU LEFTY - markbnlv Thanks for sharing your boxing knowledge. - Talisayen No Message - dancovboxer 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickey malone View Post
Here's some info on Tom Cribb

Born - Hansham, Gloucestershire, England 1781
Died - London 1848
Height - 5'10"
Weight - 199lbs

came to fame aged 24 by beating George Maddox (76 rounds), Tom Blake (20 rounds) and Ikey Pigg (11 rounds)
In his next fight he was beaten by George Nicholls, a puncher from Bristol after 52 rounds..
He bounced back by beating Bill Richmond, a former Negro slave in 90 minutes at Hailsham in Sussex.. This win secured a shot at then champion Jem Belcher on Mousley Hurst on April 8th 1807.. Cribb won in 41 rounds which was timed at 35 mins, so my knowledge of how these fights were actually conducted is futile!
After this he defended successfully against George Horton (25 rds), Bob Gregson (23) and Belcher again (31)
He then had 2 brutal encounters with another American ex-slave, Tom Molineaux, winning both times in 33 & 11 rounds respectively..
After this he retired, only to make a brief comeback after 9 years of inactivity, when he astounded onlookers to KO Jack Carter in less than a minute..
This was his last fight, and he eventually bought The Union Arms public house in Panton street, Piccadilly where he became liked and respected by everyone..
Cribb was buried in Woolwich churchyard where a huge memorial was erected to him by public subscription..
Bill Richmond was also one of the bareknuckle greats and a very interesting person from what I've read. He trained Molineaux who later fought Cribb but Cribb was able to beat him after a great struggle.

Cribb was possibly the toughest fighter that ever fought. He got better as the fight got tougher.
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#10
Old 01-15-2010, 03:03 AM
mickey malone
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1000 posts right around the bend...congrats! - JAB5239 For bringing up Schmeling's classy actions! - poet682006 Nothing But Respect For You Mate - 0Rooster4Life0 To a fellow boxing historian - Stoppage For fighting the Wanker Snopkins - HaglerSteelChin 
Well deserved. - Barnburner you need this for floyd - Weltschmerz kick this old butt hurt faqqot - Weltschmerz 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
Bill Richmond was also one of the bareknuckle greats and a very interesting person from what I've read. He trained Molineaux who later fought Cribb but Cribb was able to beat him after a great struggle.

Cribb was possibly the toughest fighter that ever fought. He got better as the fight got tougher.
Sure, it was Richmond who brought Molineaux to Great Britain..
By all accounts, he had the better of Cribb in their 1st fight, until some trickery from one of Cribbs seconds, turned the fight his way.. I don't have the finer details on this, so perhaps you can elaborate, A ?
From what I know about Cribb, he was a beast.. 5'10" & 199lbs which during the early 1800's was absolutely huge.. Molineaux was also very heavy at 198lbs but he was only 5'8" in height and resembled Dwight Quawi in many ways.. Richmond on the other hand was a mere 5'9" and only 152lbs..
The biggest of the bare knuckle champs was Gentleman John Jackson who was 5'11" and weighed in at 202lbs..

Last edited by mickey malone; 01-15-2010 at 03:09 AM.
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