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#1
Old 01-10-2010, 08:41 PM
Joey Giardello
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Default Bernard Hopkins Over Rated! any one agree?

For me he is not in the same league as other legends he is always geting compared to! such as archie moore! his 2 defeats to taylor and calzaghe were bad defeats as i dont rate them both as great fighters! now if hopkins was as great as he says he should of beat them both!

His best wins are against blown up welterweights and most of his title defence's were just the ibf title, were as most of former middleweight king carlos monzon title defences were the wbc and wba. He also priced himself out of super fights with james toney and a roy jones rematch, which hurt his legacy.What are your thoughts on hopkins being over rated?

Last edited by Joey Giardello; 01-10-2010 at 08:43 PM.
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#2
Old 01-10-2010, 08:57 PM
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I think it depends how high the person rates BHOP. If they say he is better than MW's as Harry Greb,Monzon,Marcel Cedan, Hagler, Zale etc., than i think he is overrated. I do think BHOP is atleast a top 10 MW of all time though.

My biggest issue with BHOP is that it took him 3 shots to be a MW champ and it was just for IBF. He lost to Jones Jr by atleast 4 or 5 points- i had it 117-111 the judges had it 116-112. His second shot for MW champ was a Draw with Segundo mercado. Mercado even floored him twice and some used the excuse that it was the high elevation of Ecuador. Eventually, he won the IBF Title with a KO of Mercado in the rematch.

I do give him credit for his 20 title defenses but his greatest two wins were with DLH and Trinidad guys who were better at WW and JR MW. Nonetheless, BHOP is a top 10 MW easily. I only say he is overrated when people say he is better than Greb, Zale, Monzon, hagler etc.
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#3
Old 01-10-2010, 09:00 PM
Joey Giardello
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaglerSteelChin View Post
I think it depends how high the person rates BHOP. If they say he is better than MW's as Harry Greb,Monzon,Marcel Cedan, Hagler, Zale etc., than i think he is overrated. I do think BHOP is atleast a top 10 MW of all time though.

My biggest issue with BHOP is that it took him 3 shots to be a MW champ and it was just for IBF. He lost to Jones Jr by atleast 4 or 5 points- i had it 117-111 the judges had it 116-112. His second shot for MW champ was a Draw with Segundo mercado. Mercado even floored him twice and some used the excuse that it was the high elevation of Ecuador. Eventually, he won the IBF Title with a KO of Mercado in the rematch.

I do give him credit for his 20 title defenses but his greatest two wins were with DLH and Trinidad guys who were better at WW and JR MW. Nonetheless, BHOP is a top 10 MW easily. I only say he is overrated when people say he is better than Greb, Zale, Monzon, hagler etc.
good post, i also think in middleweight match ups, monzon, hagler, greb, la motta, burley and billy conn all beat hopkins
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#4
Old 01-10-2010, 09:12 PM
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The Calzaghe and Taylor fights are controversial. People scored it differently.

I wouldn't say he's overrated. He's beat DLH, Trinidad, Wright, Tarver, G. Johnson and Pavlik. That's pretty good for a guy who was around his 40's.
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#5
Old 01-10-2010, 10:33 PM
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If any of you actually watched the first Mercado fight you wouldn't call it a draw.

B-Hop won by a mile. And losing to a near peak RJJ when you're 4 years away from entering your prime is nothing to be ashamed of.

Counting the Calzaghe loss against Hopkins is plain sad. The man was 43 years old and fighting an elite undefeated top p4p fighter who wins fights on speed and activity, two things old fighters have a very difficult time coping with. Calzaghe was the damn favorite for a reason. The fact that Hopkins managed to leave the fight with a SD does him credit.

If you're going to under play Hopkins wins over Trinidad and De La Hoya, you need to under play Hagler's wins over Hearns and Duran, and flat out condemn him for losing to Leonard.

Ripping on the fact that most his title defenses are of the IBF belt is also sad. If you knew who the other champions where around the time he won the belt, you'd know better. Joppy was one. He'd go on to defeat Joppy later, and he also beat the man that beat Joppy (Trinidad) to win the title. After Gerald McClellan vacated the WBC title it was in no serious hands. An over the hill Jackson won it back, immediately lost it to Quincy Taylor, who in turn immediately lost it to Keith Holmes. Holmes then proceeded to duck Hopkins until the Don King MW tournament, where Hopkins beat him easily and took the title. And I'm not even going to mention the WBO title, which wasn't even recognized at the time. It'd be like talking about the IBO title today.

In reality Hopkins was the most avoided fighter at 160 lbs. Without ATGs seeking glory like Trinidad and DLH, and don king's MW tournament, the man would not have been given the opportunity to unify all the titles (only man to actually hold all 4 major belts at the same time).

Last edited by Obama; 01-10-2010 at 10:36 PM.
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#6
Old 01-10-2010, 11:01 PM
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You make some good points Obama. As i said in my first post it depends how high people rank BHOP for me. If he is rated higher as guys we see as the top MW's than i say he is Overrated. But i do consider him easily a top 10 MW.

Here is a few differences i have with the comparisons with his fights with DLH and Trinidad compared to Hagler vs Hearns and Duran. DLH never belonged at MW. In fact, his only win for the WBO title was a gift decision against Felix Sturm. In addition, DLH started at 130 and was physically much smaller than BHOP. Trinidad lost the BHOP fight right before the bell rung. Once he was made to re-wrap that solid punch that KOD Wiliam Joppy mysteriously gone. Joppy never was even KOD by BHOP and J-Taylor, it was obvious Tito had something in those gloves fishy.

Hagler beat Thomas Hearns who was both taller and had a greater reach. The fact that Hearns started as a WW was inconsequential as he would fights as high as crusierweight. Duran was not much smaller than Hagler. Hagler was like 5-9 and even SRL was taller and they had almost same reach about 74 inches. Hopkins is like 6-1 and never had to deal with bigger guys like Hagler did. Hagler fought much taller guys as Minter, Obeljimias, Geraldo to name a few. Both Hearns and Duran are much higher in boxing history than DLH or Trinidad can ever wish for.

I have the BHOP Vs Mercado fight on DVD, haven't seen it in years. But here is the thing. BHOP got KD twice in two different RDS. That means he needs to make up for 4 points in 10RDS. Even if he wins 7 out of those 10 RDS than he has a draw. He would need to win 8 of the 10 non kd rds to win the fight. BHOP might have been able to squeak it out but he was in the other guy's country and needed to do more to win the vacant title. In fact, i remember Don King and Butch Lewis arguing after the fight. Don King said something like " We shoudln't come out with a draw my fighter KD twice and had control of the fight." BHOP was like "only one of them should have been scored as a KD and he thought he pulled it by a point."

Nonetheless, I do consider BHOP as one of the greatest MW champs. I just don't think he is a top 5 MW.

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#7
Old 01-10-2010, 11:18 PM
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He does get overrated by some people, but he's still one helluva fighter..
His mental resolve and attitude is reminiscent of old school, and Hopkins at whatever age, in whatever era, would fight twice a month if you let him..
Without doubt, he should be in everyones AT top 10, but below Monzon, Hagler, SRR, Greb, Jones, Burley and possibly Les Darcy if he'd lived long enough..
I think he'd have won close DC's over LaMotta, Zale, Cerdan, Fulmer, Pender, Graziano, Griffith, Conn and Toney, but it's common knowledge that Bernard can be upset by certain styles, and someone like the fleet footed Freddie Steele would'a given him fits!
I'd put him at around 7 or 8 in the MW list.. Is that overrated?
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#8
Old 01-10-2010, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey Giardello View Post
good post, i also think in middleweight match ups, monzon, hagler, greb, la motta, burley and billy conn all beat hopkins
MAYBE Hagler or Monzon but Hopkins beats the rest of your list. He destroys Lamotta.
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Old 01-11-2010, 01:39 AM
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Hopkins is an ATG, and one of the most skilled fighters i have ever seen.

In my opinion he has a chance of beating every MW there ever was, and none would handle him easily.
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#10
Old 01-11-2010, 02:09 AM
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Remember that Hopkins losses are:

- His first ever pro fight which I don't think effects his legacy at all since a defensive wizard like Hopkins who doesn't rely on reflexes would need quite a few Professional fights before he would really hit his stride. Also take note this fight was at LHW not MW.

- Prime Roy Jones Jr. who is a stylistic nightmare for a defensive fighter like Hopkins since his unorthodox punches and freakish speed would make landing his right hand counter very difficult.

- Jermain Taylor x 2, he was 40 years old. How many fighters legacy are determined by fights they took in their forties? Jermain Taylor is a solid MW who pushed a post-prime Hopkins to the limit and won two very narrow decisions that many gave to Hopkins. Again he was 40 years old here hardly a man in his prime.

- Joe Calzaghe, he was 43. Just because Hopkins is talented enough defensively to beat Kelly Pavlik does not equate to Hopkins is in his prime. Again take note he was 43 years old. If Hopkins had been 34 years old in this fight I'd favor him to teach Joe a lesson.

I rate Hopkins as a top 5 MW of all time and his defensive skills makes him an extremely tough fight for any middleweight not named Roy Jones Jr. or Harry Greb in my eyes.
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