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#1
Old 01-09-2010, 01:01 PM
Bigdaddy_Vh
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Default The Liston vs. Clay/Ali Fights

was wanting all of your HONEST opinions on what REALLY went down in these two fights? do you guys feel like Ali was just that good or do you think there was some funny business of the part of Liston?

Personally, and this is in no way a discredit to Ali, i think the Mob or someone got to Liston before this fight. I think whomever "they" were decided they were going to cash in on these two fights given the odds. Again, im not discrediting Ali in any way but I think that at point in his career, Liston should have beaten him.
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#2
Old 01-09-2010, 01:05 PM
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Not totally convinced about the shoulder injury I think if anything Liston just no mas'sed (excuse my probably inventing Spanish words!)
2nd fight still concerns me as I'm not totally convinced by the knock down, I know Walcott totally screwed it up but I can't see that punch would have put Liston down for more than a second or two.
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#3
Old 01-09-2010, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaddy_Vh View Post
was wanting all of your HONEST opinions on what REALLY went down in these two fights? do you guys feel like Ali was just that good or do you think there was some funny business of the part of Liston?

Personally, and this is in no way a discredit to Ali, i think the Mob or someone got to Liston before this fight. I think whomever "they" were decided they were going to cash in on these two fights given the odds. Again, im not discrediting Ali in any way but I think that at point in his career, Liston should have beaten him.
impossible to fix a world title fight of that magnitude... Cassius Clay was a 7/1 dog in the betting, Liston was virtually unbackable... The largest bet possible to place today in The UK is 250,000 at William Hill Bookmakers in London, The Largest bet possible to place anywhere in the world today is $500,000 in Las Vegas USA.. no Heavyweight champion is gonna take a dive for the feeble money on offer that he could win, champions like Ali, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, Holmes have all made over $100,000,000 from their career earnings..Sonny Liston was making very good money from being Heavyweight Champion... in no way did he take a dive.

Sonny Liston was beaten by a better fighter the first time he fought Cassius Clay.. Their rematch Liston had got himself into tremendous physical shape and was ready to go to war, however Cassius Clay suffered an injury only weeks before the fight and had to go to hospital to undergo a Hernia operation, the fight was cancelled for 9 months.. Sonny Liston was devastated by the cancellation and after 6 months he lost the desire to get into the shape he had been in previously due to his advanced years... when they finally came face-to-face in the ring for their rematch, it was obvious to Liston and everyone in the press section that Cassius Clay had grown from the young guy who taunted Liston before their first fight into a fully grown man, Sonny Liston never fancied the job, just like all bullies and Liston was a bully, they have a Yellow streak down their back... Sonny took the 1st oppotunity he had to get out of the fight, he went down... IMO he nor anyone else made any illegal betting money from the fight
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#4
Old 01-09-2010, 01:28 PM
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I think Liston just didn't wanna continue, in the first fight. He was behind and, like GJC said, just quit.

I thought the second fight was fixed. That punch shouldn't have knocked him out.

Even if they were fixed, Ali would've most likely beaten him, anyways.
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#5
Old 01-09-2010, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
impossible to fix a world title fight of that magnitude...
i liked everything about your analysis except for this portion. In this world, NOTHING is impossible...
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#6
Old 01-09-2010, 02:04 PM
GJC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaddy_Vh View Post
i liked everything about your analysis except for this portion. In this world, NOTHING is impossible...
No you are right in that but I think Sonny has a point in that it would have to be some betting coup for a man to give up the richest prize in sport.
Also I think there would have been enough irregular betting patterns to highlight it.
In the bad old days they often used to try and set up trilogies, i.e. he wins the 1st, you win the 2nd 3rd is for real. But even then it was known which fights had a smell to them by the betting patterns.
That said I've never been happy with the 2 fights or Liston's conduct in them
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#7
Old 01-09-2010, 03:58 PM
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The first fight was clearly just Liston realizing he was not going to win and quitting. The second fight, I can't say for sure I don't know enough about the situation but it seemed like the same thing, the punch put Liston down and he realized he would be in for another long night if he got up.
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#8
Old 01-09-2010, 04:57 PM
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Liston was an odd character, he fought well enough first time round....won a couple of rounds too, people forget this! Most highlight reels show Clay's speedy dancing in round one, and his two great moments in rounds three and six. Liston was in shape, but was having a badish day in the office. Who knows why he quit!

I dont believe in a fixed fight the second time round, he wasn't flabby or out of shape. I honestly think he quit, I dont think the punch was very hard. No one knows what was on his mind, maybe he feared the black muslims. He was a complicated character, but he did have a rock solid chin! I dont think he was knocked out!

I'd favour Ali at this point over Liston regardless.....but by decision.
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#9
Old 01-09-2010, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Sugarj View Post
Liston was an odd character, he fought well enough first time round....won a couple of rounds too, people forget this! Most highlight reels show Clay's speedy dancing in round one, and his two great moments in rounds three and six. Liston was in shape, but was having a badish day in the office. Who knows why he quit!

I dont believe in a fixed fight the second time round, he wasn't flabby or out of shape. I honestly think he quit, I dont think the punch was very hard. No one knows what was on his mind, maybe he feared the black muslims. He was a complicated character, but he did have a rock solid chin! I dont think he was knocked out!

I'd favour Ali at this point over Liston regardless.....but by decision.
The only round he won is when ali was blinded, and that was only one round, every other round he couldnt catch Clay for ****. He quit because he was spent and getting beaten up, no need to wonder why.

He took a dive in that second fight for sure, Ali didnt have the power to put him down, and Liston had showed already that he could take a good shot in his fight with Cleveland Williams. Just a payday for Liston, kinda reminded me of wallcott/marciano2, Wallcott clearly wasnt KO'ed like he was in the first fight, he just wanted an easy payday and knew he couldnt win.
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#10
Old 01-09-2010, 06:08 PM
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the fight in 64 was alis best fight, there is no way this fight was fixed, i have watched it more than 100times...
liston just didnt wanna continue to fight in their second fight, there is no fix.
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