Bert Sugar ''Jack Dempsey is greater than Ray Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Archie Moore - Boxing Forum
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Old 01-07-2010, 12:28 PM #1
cotto16 cotto16 is offline
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Default Bert Sugar ''Jack Dempsey is greater than Ray Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Archie Moore

and Ezzard Charles''

What do you think about him saying this?
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Old 01-07-2010, 12:45 PM #2
Sugarj Sugarj is offline
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It depends how you rate 'greater'. On the plus side Dempsey helped bring more people to the sport than any of the others, made it a sport for the masses, the first million dollar gates! He transgressed the sport, made it glamorous with his Hollywood lifestyle. On the boxing side of things Dempsey was more of a feared aggressive puncher than those listed, arguably more entertaining.....despite Moore's KO percentage and Leonard's showboating!

On the negative though Dempsey's title reign was pretty weak, six or seven title fights in seven or eight years is poor. His opponents were hardly in the class of the other named fighters. Moore, Charles, Whitaker and Leonard faced more hall of famers. Also, the above four were very slick boxers who had fantastic defense and treated boxing like an art form, skills wise I wouldn't rate Dempsey in their league.......although I do think his skills are underated.

Last edited by Sugarj; 01-07-2010 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 01-07-2010, 01:58 PM #3
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It depends how you rate 'greater'. On the plus side Dempsey helped bring more people to the sport than any of the others, made it a sport for the masses, the first million dollar gates! He transgressed the sport, made it glamorous with his Hollywood lifestyle. On the boxing side of things Dempsey was more a more feared aggressive puncher than those listed, arguably more entertaining.....despite Moore's KO percentage and Leonard's showboating!

On the negative though Dempsey's title reign was pretty weak, six or seven title fights in seven or eight years is poor. His opponents were hardly in the class of the other named fighters. Moore, Charles, Whitaker and Leonard faced more hall of famers. Also, the above four were very slick boxers who had fantastic defense and treated boxing like an art form, skills wise I wouldn't rate Dempsey in their league.......although I do think his skills are underated.
Think you pretty much have it there Sugar. I think that until Ali no other fighter had transcended boxing into the mainstream like Dempsey. That has nothing to do with their abilities.
I would say that Dempsey, Ali and Tyson were probably the most famous at their time more so than even SRR and Louis.
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Old 01-07-2010, 05:12 PM #4
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It's not ludicrous. Dempsey was an excellent Champion. I immediately rule out Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles in my own mind, and also think he deserves a couple of spots Pound-for-Pound ahead of Pernell Whitaker. But Sugar Ray Leonard? I would call him slightly greater than Dempsey.

Sugar always overrated the olden day fighters ...
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Old 01-07-2010, 06:12 PM #5
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Hi GJC, Your absolutely right! When Ali was champion he was arguably the most famous and recognisable man on the planet. Likewise Tyson! Theres nothing like a dominant charismatic heavyweight champion. Cant wait for the next!!!! Might be waiting for a while.

And Gamegod, I guess its easy to write off Archie Moore due to his losses at heavyweight to Marciano, Patterson and Ali (when past prime and above his true division). But check out his vast career record, KO percentage and resume at light heavyweight, its quite amazing. Also for the record, I'd take Moore's performance against Durelle over Dempsey's performance against Firpo. Two great triumphs over adversity though.

Ezzard Charles as well, just take a look at his fight record too. A resume to make you weep.
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Old 01-07-2010, 11:38 PM #6
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honestly man, i can't take Bert Sugar seriously, who is this clown??? Jack Dempsey is an overrated chump, he never fought anyone of note when he was champion, i mean wtf, 7 title defenses in 8 years, get the **** outta here, he had no skill whatsoever, if you look at films of him today he looks like a complete novice....pathetic
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Old 01-07-2010, 11:45 PM #7
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Originally Posted by The Stone Roses View Post
honestly man, i can't take Bert Sugar seriously, who is this clown??? Jack Dempsey is an overrated chump, he never fought anyone of note when he was champion, i mean wtf, 7 title defenses in 8 years, get the **** outta here, he had no skill whatsoever, if you look at films of him today he looks like a complete novice....pathetic
You should kill yourself if you don't know who Bert Sugar is.
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Old 01-08-2010, 12:17 AM #8
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Pretty ridiculous. Sugar has some very questionable opinions.
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Old 01-08-2010, 01:10 AM #9
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You should kill yourself if you don't know who Bert Sugar is.
HAHHAHAHA.....clearly, you don't know what sarcasm is.....i know who Bert Sugar is, a boxing journalist and so called historian
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Old 01-08-2010, 05:43 AM #10
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Originally Posted by The Stone Roses View Post
honestly man, i can't take Bert Sugar seriously, who is this clown??? Jack Dempsey is an overrated chump, he never fought anyone of note when he was champion, i mean wtf, 7 title defenses in 8 years, get the **** outta here, he had no skill whatsoever, if you look at films of him today he looks like a complete novice....pathetic
Dempsey had fantastic skills. Unfortunately like so many other fighters from such early era's they don't transfer to the film of the time. To me Vitaly K's skills are hardly any more impressive than Primo Carnera, and thats with todays film. TheGreatA has a video in flicker speed of Vit and he looks down right awful. I firmly believe that if Dempsey was recorded with today video technology he'd look like a superstar.
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