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View Poll Results: Does a 1969-1977 Foreman make your top 10 HWs, without the comeback?
Yes 15 68.18%
No 7 31.82%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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#1
Old 12-19-2009, 03:13 AM
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Default Evaluate George Foreman's Legacy Pre-First Retirement

If George Foreman never came out of retirement following his loss to Jimmy Young in 1977, would he make your top 10 ATG Heavyweight list?

He wouldn't make mine. I'd have him in the top 20 tho.

George's Resume Pre-First Retirement:

Notable Wins:
Gregorio Peralta (x2)
George Chuvalo
Boone Kirkman
Joe Frazier (x2) [Undefeated]
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Notable Losses:
Muhammad Ali [KO 8]
Jimmy Young [UD 12]

That's all he had to show for himself in 47 fights. Some say he didn't even beat Peralta the first time. Lyle nearly knocked him out. His fight with Chuvalo was stopped waaaaaay too early. Frazier and Norton were tailor made to lose to him. And Boone Kirkman (do you even know him?) is easily the 5th or 6th best guy he beat at the time.
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#2
Old 12-19-2009, 03:18 AM
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I think his ability to compete with the younger heavyweights in the 80s and 90s is what cemented his legacy as an ATG, if he hadn't come back I probably wouldn't call him a great heavyweight but he'd still go down as a very, very good one.
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#3
Old 12-19-2009, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Silencers View Post
I think his ability to compete with the younger heavyweights in the 80s and 90s is what cemented his legacy as an ATG, if he hadn't come back I probably wouldn't call him a great heavyweight but he'd still go down as a very, very good one.
meh i dont even look at his 90's run, that was just icing on the cake. He fought in a very tough era and was one of the best. When 3 heavyweight names get brought up from the 70's, it's Foreman, Frazier and Ali.
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama View Post
If George Foreman never came out of retirement following his loss to Jimmy Young in 1977, would he make your top 10 ATG Heavyweight list?

He wouldn't make mine. I'd have him in the top 20 tho.

George's Resume Pre-First Retirement:

Notable Wins:
Gregorio Peralta (x2)
George Chuvalo
Boone Kirkman
Joe Frazier (x2) [Undefeated]
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Notable Losses:
Muhammad Ali [KO 8]
Jimmy Young [UD 12]

That's all he had to show for himself in 47 fights. Some say he didn't even beat Peralta the first time. Lyle nearly knocked him out. His fight with Chuvalo was stopped waaaaaay too early. Frazier and Norton were tailor made to lose to him. And Boone Kirkman (do you even know him?) is easily the 5th or 6th best guy he beat at the time.
Depends how you rate fighters I guess. If your ratings are resume driven then Foreman's 1970's resume isnt the best. That said you could drive big holes through his 80's/90's wins if you wanted to be harsh. Moorer a pumped up light heavy was winning comfortably and the rest were a mixture of the mediocre or washed up.
If you do your ratings on who beats who then it becomes difficult to think of 10 HW's who would beat a prime Foreman.
Think he must have been near for the 70's and the comeback pushed him over the line.
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#5
Old 12-19-2009, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama View Post
If George Foreman never came out of retirement following his loss to Jimmy Young in 1977, would he make your top 10 ATG Heavyweight list?

He wouldn't make mine. I'd have him in the top 20 tho.

George's Resume Pre-First Retirement:

Notable Wins:
Gregorio Peralta (x2)
George Chuvalo
Boone Kirkman
Joe Frazier (x2) [Undefeated]
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Notable Losses:
Muhammad Ali [KO 8]
Jimmy Young [UD 12]

That's all he had to show for himself in 47 fights. Some say he didn't even beat Peralta the first time. Lyle nearly knocked him out. His fight with Chuvalo was stopped waaaaaay too early. Frazier and Norton were tailor made to lose to him. And Boone Kirkman (do you even know him?) is easily the 5th or 6th best guy he beat at the time.
Foreman`s legacy as an ATG has very little to do with his comeback, Foreman was Olympic Gold Medalist and destroyed his first 38 opponents including George Chuvalo whom he butchered.. Foreman hammered Joe Frazier & Ken Norton both of who gave Muhammad Ali fits.. the manner of his victories was `awesome`and it was thought and rightly so by many boxing experts that Foreman was unbeatable, .. Muhammad Ali was a 7/1 dog going into his fight with Foreman and burst the guys bubble, it happens to almost all of them,
Roy Jones vs Tarver
Mike Tyson vs Buster Douglas
Joe Frazier vs George Foreman
Joe Louis vs Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey vs Gene Tunney

But do we say these are not ATGs ?
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#6
Old 12-19-2009, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Foreman`s legacy as an ATG has very little to do with his comeback, Foreman was Olympic Gold Medalist and destroyed his first 38 opponents including George Chuvalo whom he butchered.. Foreman hammered Joe Frazier & Ken Norton both of who gave Muhammad Ali fits.. the manner of his victories was `awesome`and it was thought and rightly so by many boxing experts that Foreman was unbeatable, .. Muhammad Ali was a 7/1 dog going into his fight with Foreman and burst the guys bubble, it happens to almost all of them,
Roy Jones vs Tarver
Mike Tyson vs Buster Douglas
Joe Frazier vs George Foreman
Joe Louis vs Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey vs Gene Tunney

But do we say these are not ATGs ?
You can't compare a prime Foreman losing to a faded Ali to the other great faded fighters losing to prime opponents.

And he didn't destroy Chuvalo. What fight did you watch? On Chuvalo's standards, the fight barely got started by the time it was stopped. Chuvalo was much, much, much more durable and resilient than the ref gave him credit for. He also didn't destroy Peralta the first time, he barely won the damn fight in reality.

Anyways, we don't base ATG lists on picking 10 guys who'd beat a prime fighter based off speculation. If we did, Roy Jones and Mike Tyson would be top 20 p4p fighters.

However, considering what Jimmy Young did to Foreman, I think the list of guys that beat him could well approach 10.
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama View Post
That's all he had to show for himself in 47 fights. Some say he didn't even beat Peralta the first time. Lyle nearly knocked him out. His fight with Chuvalo was stopped waaaaaay too early. Frazier and Norton were tailor made to lose to him. And Boone Kirkman (do you even know him?) is easily the 5th or 6th best guy he beat at the time.

LMAO,Chuvalo's own managed asked the referee to stop the fight, idiot.Don't give me this crap about Norton and frazier being tailor made for him either.You can discredit anybody's win by claiming the other guy was "tailor made".

foreman deserves credit for actually fighting the dangerous Ron Lyle head on,Shavers did the same thing and was brutally knocked out cold with his face planted on the canvas.
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#8
Old 12-19-2009, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donkim View Post
LMAO,Chuvalo's own managed asked the referee to stop the fight, idiot.Don't give me this crap about Norton and frazier being tailor made for him either.You can discredit anybody's win by claiming the other guy was "tailor made".

foreman deserves credit for actually fighting the dangerous Ron Lyle head on,Shavers did the same thing and was brutally knocked out cold with his face planted on the canvas.
Whether his manager asked the ref to stop the fight or not, Chuvalo was far from ready to go. I also re-looked at the 3rd round of that fight, and the referee didn't look over at anyone before he stopped the fight. His eyes were on the two fighters, no one else. The commentator said the manager asked for the fight to be stopped, but the ref didn't even hear him, also stated by the commentator.

Point about the tailor made business was Foreman didn't beat anyone of even a semi-elite caliber that was a problem stylistically for him. Not one single guy out of 47.

Last edited by Obama; 12-19-2009 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 12-19-2009, 04:03 PM
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I believe his underrated in his first career but I do find hard to place him in the all time top ten based on just part of his career. Add to it the miracle comeback and he's in.
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Old 12-19-2009, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
Foreman`s legacy as an ATG has very little to do with his comeback, Foreman was Olympic Gold Medalist and destroyed his first 38 opponents including George Chuvalo whom he butchered.. Foreman hammered Joe Frazier & Ken Norton both of who gave Muhammad Ali fits.. the manner of his victories was `awesome`and it was thought and rightly so by many boxing experts that Foreman was unbeatable, .. Muhammad Ali was a 7/1 dog going into his fight with Foreman and burst the guys bubble, it happens to almost all of them,
Roy Jones vs Tarver
Mike Tyson vs Buster Douglas
Joe Frazier vs George Foreman
Joe Louis vs Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey vs Gene Tunney

But do we say these are not ATGs ?


Foreman was considered a monster -- but then so was Sonny Liston and Liston barely makes anyone's top 10.

If Foreman is a top 10 who among the following does he displace?

Jim Jeffries (maybe / yes)
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney (maybe)
Joe Louis
Jersey Joe Walcott (yes)
Ezzard Charles (yes)
Marciano (maybe) -- NOT TALKING ABOUT MATCH-UP
Floyd Patterson (maybe)
Sonny Liston (yes)
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier (yes) -- NOT TALKING ABOUT MATCH-UP
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield (maybe)
Lennox Lewis (maybe)

In my opinion Foreman was a border-line top 10 fighter based on his 1970s career.
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