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#1
Old 07-05-2015, 11:07 AM
Tom Cruise
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Default Who is the greatest 'Ring General' of all time?

I know everyone has there own definition, but to me ring generalmanship is about controlling the pace and 'location' of the fight. Making the fight the type that you want not what your opponent wants.

The best I've seen (I definitely have not seen everyone) are Carlos Monzon and Henry Armstrong.

Monzon I was amazed when I first watched him. He just did not look like an all time great or one of the best ever middleweights like I had read that he was. Kinda slow and awkward looking in the ring. But the more I watched him the more I saw just how skilled this guy was. He almost never gets trapped on the inside. His footwork is slow but brilliant in that he always has an escape route, always at the range he wants to be. His jab is piston like and a constant deterrent to coming inside. He is always controlling his opponents movements, shoving their heads to the side if they get too close. He can pretty much dominate world class opponents using only jabs, left hooks and right hands, he's like a textbook on fighting at range.

Armstrong is the opposite in terms of style, but equally good at forcing his fight. From what Ive seen of him the his fights are almost exclusively fought on the inside at a high pace. Even against the middleweight champion of the world he could work his way inside and bully his opponent with his head buried in their neck throwing a barrage of punches.

There are loads of fighters I havent watched though, and the ones I have watched I havent seen all of their fights.

Who are your best ring generals?
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#2
Old 07-05-2015, 11:55 AM
billeau2
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There are so many....

Joe Louis and Liston were interesting because they were methodical and the feet were controlled. Liston's half step to the punch, Louis ability to trap the opponent to set up a punch.

Then you had guys like Jack Johnson and JOnes who did it with speed and guile...

or the guys like Pep and Sweet Pea who used defensive skills as a way to create offense through controlled aggression and countering.

Sugar Ray Robinson just had so much artillery and could control the fight in so many ways.... an apt analogy might be, most guys had a fighting force, a navy, or an army, or air force, to control the enemy before firing...Robinson had all branches of the service at all times!

Some unheralded generals to consider would be Holyfield: He waged a war of attrition at heavy weight, using superior punch stat numbers and great combo punching to set up his successes. When he boxed (the Bowe fight he won for example) he was exceptional at setting the stage up.

Hopkins, who made guys react to him and fear shots that never came...

These are a few
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#3
Old 07-05-2015, 02:20 PM
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For me;

Harold Johnson
Ezzard Charles
Emile Griffith
Floyd Mayweather
Carlos Monzon
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#4
Old 07-05-2015, 02:27 PM
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Robinson and pep
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#5
Old 07-05-2015, 03:44 PM
Tom Cruise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironalex View Post
Robinson and pep
Just in terms of what Ive seen of Robinson (so middleweight fights) he seems like he can be roughed up and brought into the trenches by the right fighter. Probably a lot to do with his age though. He had great power and chin so he wasnt lost in that kind of fight, but you can tell its not where he wants to be.
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#6
Old 07-05-2015, 03:48 PM
Tom Cruise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronDanHamza View Post
For me;

Harold Johnson
Ezzard Charles
Emile Griffith
Floyd Mayweather
Carlos Monzon
Gonna watch more of the top three IronDan
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#7
Old 07-05-2015, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Cruise View Post
Gonna watch more of the top three IronDan
You won't regret it.

Rarely involved in barnburners, but all three can stand and trade with the best of them if needs be.

That's such an integral thing for me, being well rounded, being versatile and able to compete in every area.

The reason why I chose those guys on my list because all of them are a Hugh level in every area. All of them can keep a fight on the outside for the whole fight and box a guys ears off but they can also mix it up on the inside aswell against the best of them.

I really love watching a fighter that can do it all to the highest level.
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#8
Old 07-05-2015, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Cruise View Post
I know everyone has there own definition, but to me ring generalmanship is about controlling the pace and 'location' of the fight. Making the fight the type that you want not what your opponent wants.

The best I've seen (I definitely have not seen everyone) are Carlos Monzon and Henry Armstrong.

Monzon I was amazed when I first watched him. He just did not look like an all time great or one of the best ever middleweights like I had read that he was. Kinda slow and awkward looking in the ring. But the more I watched him the more I saw just how skilled this guy was. He almost never gets trapped on the inside. His footwork is slow but brilliant in that he always has an escape route, always at the range he wants to be. His jab is piston like and a constant deterrent to coming inside. He is always controlling his opponents movements, shoving their heads to the side if they get too close. He can pretty much dominate world class opponents using only jabs, left hooks and right hands, he's like a textbook on fighting at range.

Armstrong is the opposite in terms of style, but equally good at forcing his fight. From what Ive seen of him the his fights are almost exclusively fought on the inside at a high pace. Even against the middleweight champion of the world he could work his way inside and bully his opponent with his head buried in their neck throwing a barrage of punches.

There are loads of fighters I havent watched though, and the ones I have watched I havent seen all of their fights.

Who are your best ring generals?
For todays guys its obvious Floyd ranks highly but I would say that Ward ranks as highly:

Floyd and Ward are both fantastic in maintaining the right distance so they fight on their terms....Both guys use a jab intelligently to set up attacks, like Ward's masterful attack on Dawson that allowed him to set a punch just over the glove of Dawson which knocked Dawson down.

Both guys are accurate, see Floyd's jabs against Pacquio to keep him at bay followed by a punch over Pac's extended arm...

BUt where I actually give an edge to Ward is that Floyd loses some of that control inside where as Andre is just as good, if not better on the inside. This allows Ward to take guys like Froch who are good swarmers and work on them in a place where they have no business being, on the inside.

A general who has no weakness may not even be the best fighter per se but is the best general because there is nary a blueprint to beat him. To me that is exemplified by Ward.
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#9
Old 07-05-2015, 08:21 PM
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I love the question and have already thought about it a lot. My own shortlist shares some space with what has already been suggested.

I do not include Robinson on my shortlist. I consider Ray a killer whose killer instinct usually led the charge, sometimes to his detriment. The man who overspent himself on Maxim and should have coasted to a decision win, is not as good a ring genral as some IMO. Not bad, but not a superb general either. I consider generalship the weakest part of his game.

On my shortlist in no particular order are

Monzon
Pep
Mayweather
Ali
R. Leonard
Fullmer

Monzon and MW are the most steady, but Ali climbed much higher mountains. He was a great ring general and that did help with his successes. Sometimes he did not have a solution, like against Norton. Granite will power probably had more to do with some of his wins. The greatest single quality of his generalship was his adaptability under pressure.

Pep on the other hand used the maximum spread of techniques in his generalship. He would swarm you, box you to death, fight inside, punch with you, do the old in and out, the side to side, always very active in every phase. I like an active general not afraid to send his men anywhere the terrain calls for. This was Pep.

MW has a lot of control and not so much activity. He is more of a standoffish general who likes to direct from afar. Roy Jones, immensely successful as a general, was the archetypal standoffish general who employed a minumum spread of techniques and activity with maximum flash to control his fights and acheive his goals.

Monzon and Fullmer started with the least to work with. All the others were bristling packages of fast-twitch fibers, super talents in many other sports if they had set their minds to it.

Fullmer is a surprise candidate to many, no doubt. It also took me a long time to recognize his excellent generalship. Win or lose, Gene almost always got the fight he wanted out of a man until he was faded. Gene's apparent crudity belied his tactical abilities. Even his jab looks crude as it spills forward from the elbow with no spin whatsoever. It could be surprisingly effective.

Monzon's iron ability to control is almost mystical. As mentioned by the originator of this thread, he used a rudimentary set of skills brought to a high polish to acheive methodical control. He is the ultimate control freak and is aboslutely never taken out of his game. However, he did not scale the highest peaks.

Again it comes down to taste, as subjective matters always do. Where do my tastes lead me? To Pep or Leonard or Ali, if I choose who is the most fun for me to watch of that group.
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#10
Old 07-06-2015, 04:08 AM
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Mike Tyson is up there as is Duran
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