Did Liston take a dive in Ali 2? - Boxing Forum
Boxing Forum
Navigation
Go Back   Boxing Forum > Boxing Forums > Boxing History

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-11-2009, 12:15 AM #1
Real King Kong Real King Kong is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,002
Quoted: 187 Post(s)
Rep Power: 26
Real King Kong has a reputation beyond reputeReal King Kong has a reputation beyond reputeReal King Kong has a reputation beyond reputeReal King Kong has a reputation beyond reputeReal King Kong has a reputation beyond reputeReal King Kong has a reputation beyond reputeReal King Kong has a reputation beyond reputeReal King Kong has a reputation beyond reputeReal King Kong has a reputation beyond reputeReal King Kong has a reputation beyond reputeReal King Kong has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 822,616.26
Bank: 0.11
Total Points: 822,616.37
Eat Up - ??? One of boxingscene's best - Carnivore No Message - Little Mac 
AIDS/HIV - DARE - DUI Awareness - Epidermolysis Bullosa - Heart Disease - Lymphoma - MADD - Substance Abuse - !! AI-Holmes!! Breast Cancer - Birth Parents - Mr._Pink World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - Sir Tom Jones Gay and Lesbian Pride - Queen_Leia Myasthenia Gravis - Ovarian Cancer - Sexual Assault - Substance Abuse - Klitschko2009 
Default Did Liston take a dive in Ali 2?

opinions please!
Real King Kong is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisements
>>>TO REMOVE THESE ADS, PLEASE REGISTER HERE FOR FREE<<<
Old 10-11-2009, 12:23 AM #2
billionaire billionaire is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,969
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Rep Power: 0
billionaire is infamous around these partsbillionaire is infamous around these partsbillionaire is infamous around these partsbillionaire is infamous around these partsbillionaire is infamous around these partsbillionaire is infamous around these partsbillionaire is infamous around these partsbillionaire is infamous around these partsbillionaire is infamous around these partsbillionaire is infamous around these partsbillionaire is infamous around these parts
Points: 354,137.49
Bank: 13,091.31
Total Points: 367,228.80
Great post on Campbell - Massage Queen For exposing Joe Louis - Slimey Limey Buffalo Bills - siablo14 
Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - SigmaMu 
Default

it was a real knockdown you can see on the slow motion.....whether liston shouldve been down for 10 seconds is another story...

billionaire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2009, 01:39 AM #3
Benny Leonard Benny Leonard is offline
Liberty
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UTS
Posts: 7,683
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Rep Power: 27
Benny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 591,565.87
Bank: 759,465.21
Total Points: 1,351,031.08
Default

I don't think he took a dive. He got hit by a punch he didn't see coming while he was moving in. Ali knocked Williams down backing up so it wasn't unheard of with Ali. Ali was getting strong at this point in time which is a shame since he only had a short while after before he went into exile and then...eh...diminished overall ability...although fights were certainly more interesting when he came back.

Liston looks like his equilibrium was thrown off after the punch landed. I've always thought if it was fixed he would have just stayed down like he was dead instead of rolling around trying to catch his balance to get up.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......

"I think Sonny gave that second fight away [to Muhammad Ali]. I swear. He said, 'No, you win and you lose.' I said, 'In the first round?' " says Liston's widow Geraldine on ESPN Classic's SportsCentury series.

http://espn.go.com/classic/biography...ton_Sonny.html

Last edited by Benny Leonard; 10-11-2009 at 01:41 AM.
Benny Leonard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2009, 03:37 AM #4
mickey malone mickey malone is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Thailand
Age: 52
Posts: 4,259
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Rep Power: 17
mickey malone has a reputation beyond reputemickey malone has a reputation beyond reputemickey malone has a reputation beyond reputemickey malone has a reputation beyond reputemickey malone has a reputation beyond reputemickey malone has a reputation beyond reputemickey malone has a reputation beyond reputemickey malone has a reputation beyond reputemickey malone has a reputation beyond reputemickey malone has a reputation beyond reputemickey malone has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 10,288,095.26
Bank: 3,134,726,151.98
Total Points: 3,145,014,247.24
1000 posts right around the bend...congrats! - JAB5239 For bringing up Schmeling's classy actions! - poet682006 Nothing But Respect For You Mate - 0Rooster4Life0 To a fellow boxing historian - Stoppage For fighting the Wanker Snopkins - HaglerSteelChin 
Well deserved. - Barnburner you need this for floyd - Weltschmerz kick this old butt hurt faqqot - Weltschmerz 
Default

Good vid!.. Very clearly showing the punch, from a much different angle to the fight I have on tape..

The punch doesn't appear to have KO power, but it does appear to connect on the side of Listons temple.. I know from experience, those kind of shots can switch you off momentaraly, but that's all, so I'm of the opinion that he quit on his back, as opposed to getting KTFO..
mickey malone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2009, 05:09 AM #5
sonnyboyx2 sonnyboyx2 is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 5,853
Quoted: 489 Post(s)
Rep Power: 20
sonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 185,136,841.29
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 185,136,841.29
Gift for Green - HaglerSteelChin Illiterate troll of the month award. - Jim Jeffries for being a cool poster in history section - led Cool poster award - -Lightsout- Like reading your posts, funny too.  Good job, keep it up. - -D33Pwaters- 
Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - Demise Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - tanibanana 
Default

i have watched the fight many many times and i always come to the same conclusion that if the `FIX`was in, then it had nothing to do with Muhammad Ali, yet i cannot say the same for referee Jersey Joe Walcott who`s actions leave a lot to be desired... i dont think we will ever know what really happened
sonnyboyx2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2009, 05:18 AM #6
Benny Leonard Benny Leonard is offline
Liberty
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UTS
Posts: 7,683
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Rep Power: 27
Benny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 591,565.87
Bank: 759,465.21
Total Points: 1,351,031.08
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
i have watched the fight many many times and i always come to the same conclusion that if the `FIX`was in, then it had nothing to do with Muhammad Ali, yet i cannot say the same for referee Jersey Joe Walcott who`s actions leave a lot to be desired... i dont think we will ever know what really happened
Can you expound on why?
Benny Leonard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2009, 05:28 AM #7
sonnyboyx2 sonnyboyx2 is offline
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 5,853
Quoted: 489 Post(s)
Rep Power: 20
sonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond reputesonnyboyx2 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 185,136,841.29
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 185,136,841.29
Gift for Green - HaglerSteelChin Illiterate troll of the month award. - Jim Jeffries for being a cool poster in history section - led Cool poster award - -Lightsout- Like reading your posts, funny too.  Good job, keep it up. - -D33Pwaters- 
Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - Demise Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - tanibanana 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny Leonard View Post
Can you expound on why?
yes... Walcott walks across the ring to the timekeeper very hesitantly then comes back over and picks up the count on Liston even tho he has been on the floor for around 12 seconds, he does not tell Ali who is standing over Liston shouting `Get up` to go to a neutral corner, he waves the fighters on then stops the fight.. i cannot recall any referee ever doing what Walcott done, IMO if Liston took a dive Walcott was in on it
sonnyboyx2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2009, 05:33 AM #8
Benny Leonard Benny Leonard is offline
Liberty
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UTS
Posts: 7,683
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Rep Power: 27
Benny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 591,565.87
Bank: 759,465.21
Total Points: 1,351,031.08
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnyboyx2 View Post
yes... Walcott walks across the ring to the timekeeper very hesitantly then comes back over and picks up the count on Liston even tho he has been on the floor for around 12 seconds, he does not tell Ali who is standing over Liston shouting `Get up` to go to a neutral corner, he waves the fighters on then stops the fight.. i cannot recall any referee ever doing what Walcott done, IMO if Liston took a dive Walcott was in on it
Or maybe it was an inexperienced ref in Walcott?

Ali was jumping around and Walcott was trying to control the crazy man first.

When Liston finally got up, Walcott whipped his gloves to let him fight again but stopped the fight when someone yelled out that Liston was down more than 10 seconds...or something like that.

Last edited by Benny Leonard; 10-11-2009 at 05:37 AM.
Benny Leonard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2009, 05:34 AM #9
Mersey Mersey is offline
Dirt Nasty
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Liverpool, mate.
Age: 28
Posts: 11,432
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Rep Power: 33
Mersey has a reputation beyond reputeMersey has a reputation beyond reputeMersey has a reputation beyond reputeMersey has a reputation beyond reputeMersey has a reputation beyond reputeMersey has a reputation beyond reputeMersey has a reputation beyond reputeMersey has a reputation beyond reputeMersey has a reputation beyond reputeMersey has a reputation beyond reputeMersey has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 1,001,271,754.90
Bank: 689,287,949,583.93
Total Points: 690,289,221,338.83
Pizza - ??? You need alcohol bro - mangler suppp - Ether My nizzle! - mangler jr Merry Christmas - RiΖO 
More food for ya - mangler Beer for the fights - mangler :D - -veteran420- Tis the season - mangler Sip this wine - mangler 
Have an Apple! - ▀reakbeat tuna melt - MANGLER For When You Want To Watch Liverpool fc play :P - BritishBoxing92 celebrate - TBear been a minute - MANGLER 
My favourite Scouse, Though Steve McManaman could get it. Ferry cross da Mersey  :love: - *Boss Lady* 
AIDS/HIV - DARE - DUI Awareness - Epidermolysis Bullosa - Heart Disease - Lymphoma - MADD - Substance Abuse - mangler AIDS/HIV - DARE - DUI Awareness - Epidermolysis Bullosa - Heart Disease - Lymphoma - MADD - Substance Abuse - Sαntα Troop and Military Support - Amber Alert - Bladder Cancer - Endometriosis - Equality - Liver Cancer - Liver Disease - Missing Children - POW/MIA - Spina Bifida - Suicide - Sir Tom Jones Cultural Diversity - Hunger - Leukemia - Lupus - Melanoma - Racial Tolerance - Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy Syndrome - Self Injury - ??? Bone Marrow Donation - Childhood Depression - Depression - Environment - Eye Injury Prevention - Glaucoma - Kidney Cancer - Kidney Disease - Kidney Transplantation - Leukemia - Lyme Disease - Mental Retardation - Missing Children - Organ Donation - T - ??? 
Myasthenia Gravis - Ovarian Cancer - Sexual Assault - Substance Abuse - mangler Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - ??? Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - jazluvr449 World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - The Scientist Alzheimer's - Crohn's & Colitis - Cystic Fibrosis - Domestic Violence - Fibromyalgia - Leimyosarcoma - Lupus - ??? 
Autism - Ether AIDS/HIV - DARE - DUI Awareness - Epidermolysis Bullosa - Heart Disease - Lymphoma - MADD - Substance Abuse - Dorian Cesarean Sections - Headaches - Hospice Care - Multiple Myeloma - mangler Childhood Cancer - mangler Graves Disease - Lymphedema - Men's Health - Pro Choice - Prostate Cancer - Scleroderma - Thyroid Disease - Trisomy 18 - Artur Kyshenko 
Anti-Tobacco - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - mangler Arthritis - Child Abuse - Colon Cancer - Colorectal Cancer - Dystonia - Education - Free Speech - Interstitial Cystitis - ME/CFIDS - Reye's Syndrome - Save the Music - Teens Against Smoking - Victim's Rights - Water Quality - Ether Cancer - Epilepsy - Foster Care - Gynecological Cancer - Rett Syndrome - MANGLER Aphasia - Asthma/Allergies - Brain Cancer - Brain Tumors - Diabetes - Mental Illness - MANGLER Mourning - Anti-Gang - Melanoma - dj emz 
Default

I think it was a dive.

The main reason I think that is Listons actions on the floor. He tried to get back up and then 'rolled' back over. It looked so forced it was unreal.

There is no way Sonny Liston was hurt by that punch IMO.



4 mins into the vid.

Last edited by Merseyside; 10-11-2009 at 05:36 AM.
Mersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2009, 05:41 AM #10
Benny Leonard Benny Leonard is offline
Liberty
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UTS
Posts: 7,683
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Rep Power: 27
Benny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond reputeBenny Leonard has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 591,565.87
Bank: 759,465.21
Total Points: 1,351,031.08
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merseyside View Post
I think it was a dive.

The main reason I think that is Listons actions on the floor. He tried to get back up and then 'rolled' back over. It looked so forced it was unreal.

There is no way Sonny Liston was hurt by that punch IMO.



4 mins into the vid.
But Why would he bother to fake it like that. Do what the rest did...lie down and play dead.

Liston was drunk at that point and was trying to regain his balance. Everything is slow and moving on him so he is trying to focus in regaining his equilibrium. And then he did get back up...so why even try to get up?
Even when he was falling down, he stuck out his arms to break his fall or try to keep his balance to stay up.

At least that is what I think.



Benny Leonard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share This With Friends

Tags
dive, liston

User Tag List

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:28 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.