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Old 10-05-2009, 10:16 AM #1
Dynamite Kid Dynamite Kid is offline
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Question Overated by fans/media more so that overtated fighters

Overated by fans more so that overtated fighters? come on!! we all have 1 or 2 so lets hear them, here is your chance to let it all out


You can pick more than two if you like. I know SonnyBox will pick Lennox by default but he can still post that if he likes, its all good.

An exaggerated opinion on a particular fighter, its not to say they are not great, just that the hype outweighs the credentials/ability of the fighter from YOUR! perspective.

My picks.......

Marvin Hagler, Duran & Kostya Tszyu.

Dont get me wrong all were tremendous fighters whom i respect but i just dont believe the high regard Tszyu is held in stacks up to the skills and resume he has. His skills were much better in the amateurs from the footage ive seen, but as a Pro he lacked defence and he could not fight inside, his resume is not what id expect for the amount of hype that surrounds his name.

Hagler because when i watch Hagler what i see is a methodical fighter with good countering skills albeit not spectacular, and a guy who had pretty average hand & foot speed, its no surprise to me that Duran, Leonard were able to give him so much trouble with their Boxing skills, because like i said whist Hagler was a competent Boxer, he was not an exceptional one, what Hagler did have going for him was ..........he was a punishing puncher, had good stamina, iron jaw, heart, good countering skills albeit not spectacular as i mentioned.


Duran just purely on the fact some people rank him waay to high on their ATG lists. He was a great LW because of his longevity more so than because of who he beat, but was he any better than Whitaker at Lightweight? he had a great reign but Whitaker had wins over Azumah Nelson, Haugen, Paez, Pendleton,JLR, Mayweather. The win over Nelson is better than any of Duran's imo. De Jesus is the best name on Duran's resume at LW. I also think his stint at MW/LMW gets overrated to, if you stay around long enough and keep taking losses eventually you can beat a crude Iran Barkley and give your resume a nice shine. He was outboxed by Laing, Benitez, he was knocked out against Hearns, lost two other fights with Leonard, and whilst he did well against Hagler he still lost. He is a great fighter but people put him up there way too far. I think Duran came in out of shape a lot of the time but he does not get a free pass if that is why he lost on occasion. Another thing, Duran's defence gets over hyped too much imo, whilst he had a good defence it was not as air tight as people would have you believe, he got nailed quite a few times with right hands or left hooks. Duran is an ATG but he is not a (4) ATG like some laughable have him as.


Lets hear yours..........

Last edited by Dynamite Kid; 10-05-2009 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:33 AM #2
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I'm not sure if a win over Azumah Nelson at LW should rate that highly.

DeJesus and Ken Buchanan are ATG lightweights in my opinion, possibly top 20. Edwin Viruet, Ray Lampkin, Suzuki Ishimatsu, Hector Thompson, Hiroshi Kobayashi, Leoncio Ortiz, Saoul Mamby, Emiliano Villa, Vilomar Fernandez, Jimmy Robertson, Masataka Takayama, etc. were all good fighters.

I really rate Duran's early career win over Ernesto Marcel as well.

I think post-1980's fighters tend to get a bit overhyped, because more footage is available. It's far more difficult to seek out film of a Joe Brown, Esteban DeJesus, Jose Napoles and Jimmy Carter than a Jose Luis Castillo.
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Old 10-05-2009, 10:43 AM #3
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I'm not sure if a win over Azumah Nelson at LW should rate that highly.

DeJesus and Ken Buchanan are ATG lightweights in my opinion, possibly top 20. Edwin Viruet, Ray Lampkin, Suzuki Ishimatsu, Hector Thompson, Hiroshi Kobayashi, Leoncio Ortiz, Saoul Mamby, Emiliano Villa, Vilomar Fernandez, Jimmy Robertson, Masataka Takayama, etc. were all good fighters.

I really rate Duran's early career win over Ernesto Marcel as well.

I think post-1980's fighters tend to get a bit overhyped, because more footage is available. It's far more difficult to seek out film of a Joe Brown, Esteban DeJesus, Jose Napoles and Jimmy Carter than a Jose Luis Castillo.



I think fighter pre 1980 get more overhyped, that is why people are able to make their reign out to look better than it actually was. Great fighters have their own competition over hyped to make them look even better.

Durans best wins imo would be Marcel, Viruet, De Jesus, Kobayashi, Fernandez.
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:01 AM #4
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I think post-1980's fighters tend to get a bit overhyped, because more footage is available. It's far more difficult to seek out film of a Joe Brown, Esteban DeJesus, Jose Napoles and Jimmy Carter than a Jose Luis Castillo.
Case in point: I have practically ALL of Pernell Whitaker's fights on DVD while only maybe a third of Duran's and most of the Duran fights I have are post 1980. In fact, the vast majority of the fighters for whom it could be said I have "career packs" for (fewer than 10 missing fights) are fighters who fought the bulk of their careers post-1990. The fights are simply easier to come by.

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Old 10-05-2009, 11:07 AM #5
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Case in point: I have practically ALL of Pernell Whitaker's fights on DVD while only maybe a third of Duran's and most of the Duran fights I have are post 1980. In fact, the vast majority of the fighters for whom it could be said I have "career packs" for (fewer than 10 missing fights) are fighters who fought the bulk of their careers post-1990. The fights are simply easier to come by.

Poet
I hear you there but one thing that puzzles me with that is, if those fights are so hard to come by then how come a 20+ year old have the ability to rank Duran as a number 4 ATG if those fights are unavailable or they were not born when he fought back then.
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:15 AM #6
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I hear you there but one thing that puzzles me with that is, if those fights are so hard to come by then how come a 20+ year old have the ability to rank Duran as a number 4 ATG if those fights are unavailable or they were not born when he fought back then.
By doing research. I don't need to see the Battle of Allesia to know Julius Ceaser was a great general: Researching the battle tells me that. The truth is that I, for one, treat boxing the way I would treat any academic subject that interests me. Now if video is available I watch it as I'm also a fan of the sport and enjoy it, but even then I'll still do some research though prehaps not as much as I would in the case of fighters who have very little film available of them.

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Old 10-05-2009, 11:20 AM #7
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By doing research. I don't need to see the Battle of Allesia to know Julius Ceaser was a great general: Researching the battle tells me that. The truth is that I, for one, treat boxing the way I would treat any academic subject that interests me. Now if video is available I watch it as I'm also a fan of the sport and enjoy it, but even then I'll still do some research though prehaps not as much as I would in the case of fighters who have very little film available of them.

Poet
I just dont like relying on someone else's interpretation and its not as though there is not enough footage of him to form an opinion.
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:39 AM #8
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I just dont like relying on someone else's interpretation and its not as though there is not enough footage of him to form an opinion.
Well, with Duran at least there's a lot of footage the problem is most of it's past-prime stuff. Now I was lucky in that I grew up in the 70s and could see Duran fighting in his prime on ABC's Wide World of Sports on Saturday's. Can most posters here say that? A few, yes, but the rest have to rely on available video; most of which is post-1980 stuff.

I don't see the need to "reinvent the wheel" myself. I don't need to redo Einstein's equations to know that the Theory of Relativity is valid: I am reasonably certain that Einstein knew what he was about so there's no need to start from scratch.

In a related note, I'm not saying YOU but I've caught this from other posters who are of the younger crowd, there seems to be a distrust of education in any form in that unless they can see or experience something for themselves than it has no validity. I find that rather disturbing: I mean, why spend all that money sending someone to college when they're turning their noses up at everything they're supposed to be learning there? I mean, one doesn't have to actually GO to Mongolia to know it actually exists does he?

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Old 10-05-2009, 12:04 PM #9
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Well, with Duran at least there's a lot of footage the problem is most of it's past-prime stuff. Now I was lucky in that I grew up in the 70s and could see Duran fighting in his prime on ABC's Wide World of Sports on Saturday's. Can most posters here say that? A few, yes, but the rest have to rely on available video; most of which is post-1980 stuff.

I don't see the need to "reinvent the wheel" myself. I don't need to redo Einstein's equations to know that the Theory of Relativity is valid: I am reasonably certain that Einstein knew what he was about so there's no need to start from scratch.

In a related note, I'm not saying YOU but I've caught this from other posters who are of the younger crowd, there seems to be a distrust of education in any form in that unless they can see or experience something for themselves than it has no validity. I find that rather disturbing: I mean, why spend all that money sending someone to college when they're turning their noses up at everything they're supposed to be learning there? I mean, one doesn't have to actually GO to Mongolia to know it actually exists does he?

Poet

Fair play.

Im not doubting that Duran was a great fighter, he was a great fighter, its just i dont think his resume makes him the a (4) ATG, its fair to say ive not seen all of Duran's fights at LW but i have watched footage of ....

Leoncio Ortiz
Esteban De Jesus 1,2,3
Guts Ishimatsu
Hector Thompson
Ken Buchanan
Hiroshi Kobayashi
Ernesto Marcel
Benny Huertas
Ray Lampkin
Edwin Viruet
Lou Bizzarro
Vilomar Fernandez
Rojas
Edwin Viruet 2
Adolfo Viruet

Also i dont think i need to have been of that era to know whom at that time was considered a great fighter (elite) if they were of the stature (a) i would know who they are (b) their record would confirm that.


When i look at Duran's record at LW it does not jump out at me and say "WOW"

The fact that his reign was long is impressive but i dont see that many great names on there. Where are the Sanchez's, Arguello's ? i know guys like Fernandez, Viruet are respectable wins/fighters, they both held wins over Escalera, Arguello, but his resume seems to be solid rather than spectacular, its not so much his career at LW that im skeptical of its more a culmination of a him having a solid LW career albeit not spectacular and losing fights to guys who were less than stellar, now im not gonna crucify him for that because i think there were legit reasons for his losses to Hearns, Sims, Leonard, Laing, Benitez but by the same token im not going to put him as an ATG(4) if you get my drift, lets for arguments sake he does not beat Leonard, how far does he fall from (4) ATG status ? id say pretty significantly, that there says it all to me about how exaggerated his place is as a(4) ATG.

i echo the sentiments he was an ATG and a terrific fighter but im skeptical and think his ranking as an ATG is exaggerated, a great fighter but

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Old 10-05-2009, 12:09 PM #10
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By doing research. I don't need to see the Battle of Allesia to know Julius Ceaser was a great general: Researching the battle tells me that. The truth is that I, for one, treat boxing the way I would treat any academic subject that interests me. Now if video is available I watch it as I'm also a fan of the sport and enjoy it, but even then I'll still do some research though prehaps not as much as I would in the case of fighters who have very little film available of them.

Poet
Very well said.
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