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#11
Old 08-20-2009, 03:58 PM
Davros?
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Johansson never used to give his best in training, I wouldnt have put Clay in against him after just 4 fights. I would like to have seen Johansson against Liston when that fight was signed.
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#12
Old 08-20-2009, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Kid McCoy View Post
Johansson wasn't champion then, he was training for the third Patterson fight.

I wouldn't give a green 4-0 Cassius Clay much chance of beating Johansson, or any top contender for that matter. Dundee had a lot of respect for Ingo's right hand, and I very much doubt he'd risk his raw prospect being clobbered with that in a real fight. According to Johansson, Dundee was actually there during the session shouting at him not to throw his right.

Ultimately, not much can be read into a sparring session where a young, swift amateur runs rings around an older, slower pro for two rounds.
STYLES MAKE FIGHTS and Clay was vulnerable to the left hook,not the right hand.

Before training with Dudee, Clay was being trained by Archie Moore before he had any pro fights.Clay kept begging Archie to spar with him, but Archie said he had alot to learn before sparring with himself.But daily Clay kept begging Archie to spar with him until Archie grew tired of hearing Clay's ramblings.Clay easily beat Archie and actually was throwing hard leather and started hurting Moore.The next time Archie was on the telephone with Clay's investor's,talking about how Clay was doing and traning etc. etc. The investor's said it sounded like someone needed to set Clay straight,and start listening to Archie.Moore replied "I agree with you,but I don't know who is going to set him straight including myself!"

Read about Clay as an amateur sparring the LH Champion of the World,that Dundee was training.Dundee later recalls how Cassiuss boxed circles around the LH Champion of the world!

I no sparring is sparring,but I would bet Clay would have had even chances of beating Johansson,because STYLES MAKE FIGHTS!! Remember,a young Cassiuss Clay with only 19 pro fights "easily" sparred circles around the Big Bad unbeatable Sonny Liston!
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#13
Old 08-20-2009, 05:55 PM
Kid McCoy
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Originally Posted by boxingbuff View Post
STYLES MAKE FIGHTS and Clay was vulnerable to the left hook,not the right hand.

Before training with Dudee, Clay was being trained by Archie Moore before he had any pro fights.Clay kept begging Archie to spar with him, but Archie said he had alot to learn before sparring with himself.But daily Clay kept begging Archie to spar with him until Archie grew tired of hearing Clay's ramblings.Clay easily beat Archie and actually was throwing hard leather and started hurting Moore.The next time Archie was on the telephone with Clay's investor's,talking about how Clay was doing and traning etc. etc. The investor's said it sounded like someone needed to set Clay straight,and start listening to Archie.Moore replied "I agree with you,but I don't know who is going to set him straight including myself!"

Read about Clay as an amateur sparring the LH Champion of the World,that Dundee was training.Dundee later recalls how Cassiuss boxed circles around the LH Champion of the world!

I no sparring is sparring,but I would bet Clay would have had even chances of beating Johansson,because STYLES MAKE FIGHTS!! Remember,a young Cassiuss Clay with only 19 pro fights "easily" sparred circles around the Big Bad unbeatable Sonny Liston!
And Archie was what, 50 years old at the time?

In no way shape or form would Clay have been ready for someone like Johansson after 4 pro fights and Dundee would have known that, irrespective of what went on in some sparring session. His subsequent struggles with Banks, Cooper and Jones showed he wasn't yet ready. Suppose Johansson had buzzed him with a right the way Jones did? Best Ali beats best Johansson, not 19 year-old fresh out of the amateurs Clay against prime Johansson.
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#14
Old 08-21-2009, 12:07 PM
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Johansson didnīt use hes right at sparring so mutch. He always saved it for the matches. He got a lot of **** becuse hew didnīt knock out his sparring partner in the first patterson fight by american reporters who thougt he was a bum ho had hes family whit him in traningcamp.
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#15
Old 08-21-2009, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Kid McCoy View Post
And Archie was what, 50 years old at the time?

In no way shape or form would Clay have been ready for someone like Johansson after 4 pro fights and Dundee would have known that, irrespective of what went on in some sparring session. His subsequent struggles with Banks, Cooper and Jones showed he wasn't yet ready. Suppose Johansson had buzzed him with a right the way Jones did? Best Ali beats best Johansson, not 19 year-old fresh out of the amateurs Clay against prime Johansson.
We are going to have to agree to disagree.

Moore was old but was still the HW Champion of the World I believe.

Your talking about Johannson beating Clay like all the boxing experts were talking about how bad Liston was going to destroy Clay.Clay just had trouble against Jones and Cooper,but "easily" whipped Sonny Liston.So you using Jones and Cooper trying to prove what Johannson would do to Clay holds no water.Did it matter against Liston?

Again,boxing insiders gave Clay a even chance of beating Johannson because STYLES MAKE FIGHTS.....Johannson was alot slower than Jones and Cooper,just like Liston was.Patterson got knocked down by an amateur in a real fight!!
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#16
Old 08-22-2009, 10:03 PM
Kid McCoy
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Originally Posted by boxingbuff View Post
We are going to have to agree to disagree.

Moore was old but was still the HW Champion of the World I believe.

Your talking about Johannson beating Clay like all the boxing experts were talking about how bad Liston was going to destroy Clay.Clay just had trouble against Jones and Cooper,but "easily" whipped Sonny Liston.So you using Jones and Cooper trying to prove what Johannson would do to Clay holds no water.Did it matter against Liston?

Again,boxing insiders gave Clay a even chance of beating Johannson because STYLES MAKE FIGHTS.....Johannson was alot slower than Jones and Cooper,just like Liston was.Patterson got knocked down by an amateur in a real fight!!
Styles may make fights but timing is also key. Did Spinks, Holmes or Berbick beat Ali because of styles or because they were better than him? No, they just caught him at the right time.

If you want to pick a teenager with four pro bouts to his name to beat a prime dangerous puncher one fight removed from being heavyweight champion of the world then that's your choice, but like you say we'll have to agree to differ.

The Liston point is moot - the Ali he faced was not the Ali you're matching against Ingo. He would not have been ready for that kind of opposition at that point in his career. The Liston version was at least a ranked contender who had just beaten a couple of other contenders.
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