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Old 05-16-2009, 12:49 AM #1
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Default Why isnt Harry Wills....

ever mentioned alongside the other black heavyweights of the early 20th century? Everytime I hear people talk about the color barrier era in black boxing I hear about Sam Langford, Jack Johnson, Joey Jeanette, and even Sam McVae, but I rarely hear about Wills. I know he came along a few years after these other fighters, but the gap wasnt that large (only 5 years younger than McVea, 6 years younger than Langford, and 10 years younger than Jeanette)...... He still had to face the same barriers these other guys faced, and he maintained a good record against his more mentioned counterparts.

vs Jeanette (1-0-2)
vs McVae (2-2-0)
vs Langford (12-2-1)

Total - 15-4-3

Maybe they do mention his name and I am not paying close enough attention, but I just hear the names of others mentioned more. Any input as to why?

Also, if any of you historians can tell me more about Wills that'd be appreciated also.

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Old 05-16-2009, 07:00 PM #2
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all you need to know is jack dempsey ducked him.....and faked a photo op knowing his baby handlers would never let them fight....
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Old 05-17-2009, 04:04 AM #3
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Originally Posted by billionaire View Post
all you need to know is jack dempsey ducked him.....and faked a photo op knowing his baby handlers would never let them fight....
The fight was signed twice, so I guess he may need to know a little bit more than hot air and bull****.
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Old 05-17-2009, 01:16 PM #4
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The fight was signed twice with no intentions of being made.

Jack Dempsey can hide behind the fact that they didn't want him to defend his title against Black contenders, but BEFORE he won the title he only faced ONE, I repeat, ONE credible Black contender. And guess what? He DREW with the guy.

And it's not like Dempsey wasn't fighting credible fighters before he met Willard. He beat the following leading up to that fight:

Andre Anderson
Willie Meehan
Gunboat Smith
Carl Morris
Bill Brennan
Billy Miske
Fred Fulton
Battling Levinsky *Light Heavyweight

Fred Fulton was his best opponent, even better than a post-prime 3 year layoff Willard. So really, if the guy was fighting the best white fighters around, why doesn't he have wins over at least SECOND TIER Black fighters?

Consider it a HW assignment to find the one credible Black guy he fought...should be easy considering I told you it ended in a draw.
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Old 05-17-2009, 02:01 PM #5
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thanks for the info guys
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obama View Post
The fight was signed twice with no intentions of being made.

Jack Dempsey can hide behind the fact that they didn't want him to defend his title against Black contenders, but BEFORE he won the title he only faced ONE, I repeat, ONE credible Black contender. And guess what? He DREW with the guy.

And it's not like Dempsey wasn't fighting credible fighters before he met Willard. He beat the following leading up to that fight:

Andre Anderson
Willie Meehan
Gunboat Smith
Carl Morris
Bill Brennan
Billy Miske
Fred Fulton
Battling Levinsky *Light Heavyweight

Fred Fulton was his best opponent, even better than a post-prime 3 year layoff Willard. So really, if the guy was fighting the best white fighters around, why doesn't he have wins over at least SECOND TIER Black fighters?

Consider it a HW assignment to find the one credible Black guy he fought...should be easy considering I told you it ended in a draw.
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Old 05-17-2009, 02:21 PM #6
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Originally Posted by Obama View Post
The fight was signed twice with no intentions of being made.
** Well, Obamy, it goes like this: Need to find another name because you're definitely dragging down the reputation of our new president.

Of course, you could be Rush in pink pantyhose blithering on about whatever silly stream of conciousness sparks his single neuron, but, regardless, Jack signed to fight Wills but the finances and politics to make such a fight were not in place.

Jack signing to fight Wills was a big upgrade from Johnson NOT signing to face Wills, Jeanette, McVea, and Langford when he was in Paris and needed money. Nor did Willard.

The new age kiddies that are starting to take over the history section say the darnednest things, like Dempsey ducked Greb, ducked Norfolk, ducked Godfrey, ducked Gaines, apparently ducking everyone of the era with a pulse or a teddy bear.

Well, my sweet sillyboys, it's fact that Jack ducked everyone for 3 yrs while in Hollywood, being busy making more money than anyone in the history of sports and doing it without a manager and promoter leading him around with a ring through his nose.

Even ducked Big Bill Tate, his sparring partner and friend that he invited to Hollywood to be his "butler" in spite of Jack never wanting or needing a butler.

In the meantime, me thinks you will ignore the more than a dozen era champs and contenders to the title that Big Pants Larry Holmes failed to match up with until he lost his title in spite of there being no politics or finances as obstacles. My dear, if the "heroes" of your generation don't hold up, what business do you have criticizing past generations whom you clearly have no historical knowledge of?

Step away from the name sweetie, and honour the legend of Wills by embracing his name, something like Black Panther and come back asking why instead of poorly slinging what is rebounding on you.

Oh, and a belated Happy Birthday Harry, born 5-15-1889........
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Old 05-17-2009, 03:52 PM #7
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Originally Posted by LondonRingRules View Post
The new age kiddies that are starting to take over the history section say the darnednest things, like Dempsey ducked Greb, ducked Norfolk, ducked Godfrey, ducked Gaines, apparently ducking everyone of the era with a pulse or a teddy bear.
You continue to be one of the most biased posters around here, and once again you are wrong.

Right, like I told you last time Dempsey did duck a Greb showdown, funny how you never got back to me. I'am a big Dempsey fan, but you can't deny he ducked Harry Greb.

What is it, you just don't like Greb or you don't know much about him which will proably be the case. Like I said in previous posts A Harry Greb and Dempsey fight was on and everyone had agreed to it, and the only person needing to accept was Dempsey, and he rejected.

Greb was calling out Dempsey even when he wasn't Champion in 1919, But Dempsey just wound't accept his offer, he chose to Battling Levinsky instead, a man Greb had just defeated. Greb would defeat many of opponets, and then them opponets such as Tommy Gibbons and Battling Levinsky would go on to fight Dempsey.

After Dempsey won the Title, most newspapers were calling for this fight to be made.

They had many of proposed fights, on July 21 1919, a headline read ''Greb Dempsey fight probabale, two promoters offer purses. The proposed fight was due to take place on labour day, the fight was to be a 10 round fight, lots of promoters were lining up to set this fight up.


Greb wanted the fight so much, beliving there was no dout he could beat Dempsey. At this time no heavyweight had defeated Greb, Greb was destroying heavyweights. When Greb and his manager Red Mason were asked about the fight, Mason said Greb is more than willing, he is asking for the bout, Mason said it's all up to Dempsey.

The Pittsburgh post wrote ''So its up to Dempsey. and its going to be difficlut for Dempsey to say ''go get a reputation to Greb, as Greb has licked just as many heavyweights as Dempsey.

Dempsey would then enter talks win Bill Brennan. A man Greb had already defeated. Greb had beaten Brennan in Feb/March time, and you think Dempsey would of wanted to fight the conqueror in these fights, Dempsey chose to fight the loser. After dempsey defeated Brennan, Brennan would go onto say there is no dout in his mind Greb would defeat Demspey.

The botom line is the reason a Harry Greb and Jack Dempsey fight never took place was because Dempsey never wanted it, go and read Fearless Harry Greb for prove.....

In 1953 in a sports magazine, there was a article on the subject of how Dempsey just refuses to fight Greb, written by author Bill Stern ''The Man Dempsey wound't fight''

Talk about disrepect, this little fella you say....Greb was beating all the best heavyweights in the world, and this little fella you say, split Dempseys left eye open, and in the first spar, Dempsey said he will have to call it a day

The crowd who were watching, all loved Greb, Greb was said to look as strong as a young bull. And after a few more sparring sessions, that Greb also got the better of, Demspey just didn't want to know.

Hey, Greb even use to say to Dempsey,to his face, when you gonna fight me you bum''

So face fact, Dempsey ducked Greb full stop. And in you spare time why don't your try and do a little bit of Research about the old times and Especailly Harry Greb.........
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Old 05-17-2009, 04:29 PM #8
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Originally Posted by LondonRingRules View Post
** Well, Obamy, it goes like this: Need to find another name because you're definitely dragging down the reputation of our new president.

Of course, you could be Rush in pink pantyhose blithering on about whatever silly stream of conciousness sparks his single neuron, but, regardless, Jack signed to fight Wills but the finances and politics to make such a fight were not in place.

Jack signing to fight Wills was a big upgrade from Johnson NOT signing to face Wills, Jeanette, McVea, and Langford when he was in Paris and needed money. Nor did Willard.

The new age kiddies that are starting to take over the history section say the darnednest things, like Dempsey ducked Greb, ducked Norfolk, ducked Godfrey, ducked Gaines, apparently ducking everyone of the era with a pulse or a teddy bear.

Well, my sweet sillyboys, it's fact that Jack ducked everyone for 3 yrs while in Hollywood, being busy making more money than anyone in the history of sports and doing it without a manager and promoter leading him around with a ring through his nose.

Even ducked Big Bill Tate, his sparring partner and friend that he invited to Hollywood to be his "butler" in spite of Jack never wanting or needing a butler.

In the meantime, me thinks you will ignore the more than a dozen era champs and contenders to the title that Big Pants Larry Holmes failed to match up with until he lost his title in spite of there being no politics or finances as obstacles. My dear, if the "heroes" of your generation don't hold up, what business do you have criticizing past generations whom you clearly have no historical knowledge of?

Step away from the name sweetie, and honour the legend of Wills by embracing his name, something like Black Panther and come back asking why instead of poorly slinging what is rebounding on you.

Oh, and a belated Happy Birthday Harry, born 5-15-1889........
I'm amazed you managed to write all this when it has nothing to do with my post. You even make references to things you think I stand for or have said in the past, when you have probably never seen me post before. It's amazing.
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Old 05-18-2009, 12:45 AM #9
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Dempsey fought numerous black fighters; in addition to John Lester Johnson, there was Battling Johnson, Anamas Campbell, George Christian. There were probably others too, given that many of Dempsey's opponents are unknown or untraceable.

A raw Dempsey could have faced Langford in 1916, but understandably thought better of it. No way was he ready for Langford then and Dempsey said as much. By the time he became champion, Langford was well long in the tooth and had been beaten by Fulton, who Dempsey beat in turn.

Wills was the only relevant black heavyweight Dempsey should have faced, and he signed to fight him twice. Through no fault of his own, the fight fell through due to the politics of the day - New York for instance called for the fight but was not prepared to stage it due to the fear of race riots. Who else was there? Incidentally, how many black heavies did Joe Louis or Jack Johnson defend against?

Last edited by Kid McCoy; 05-18-2009 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:02 AM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid McCoy View Post
Dempsey fought numerous black fighters; in addition to John Lester Johnson, there was Battling Johnson, Anamas Campbell, George Christian and a few others too.

A raw Dempsey could have faced Langford in 1916, but understandably thought better of it. No way was he ready for Langford then and Dempsey said as much. By the time he became champion, Langford was well long in the tooth and had been beaten by Fulton, who Dempsey beat in turn.

Wills was the only relevant black heavyweight Dempsey should have faced, and he signed to fight him twice. Through no fault of his own, the fight fell through due to the politics of the day - New York for instance called for the fight but was not prepared to stage it due to the fear of race riots. Who else was there? Incidentally, how many black heavies did Joe Louis or Jack Johnson defend against?
Forget about title defenses. Titles weren't defended against Black people, we all get that. Doesn't excuse Dempsey prior to being Champion however. You mentioned all the Black fighters he fought, however, John Lester Johnson was the ONLY CREDIBLE opponent. The rest never beat anyone worthwhile in their entire careers, so how could they be credible? He fought 1 credible Black Heavyweight, and he drew with him.

Who were the other Black Heavyweights he could have fought besides Wills and Langford? Well let's see....

At the top of the list, Joe Jeanette and Sam McVea.

Further down the list, Jeff Clark, Jack Thompson, Tut Jackson, etc.
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