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#1
Old 04-23-2009, 01:44 PM
GJC
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Default Willie Pep

Anyone care to discuss that Willie Pep with a punch would have been the best p4P?
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#2
Old 04-23-2009, 01:47 PM
portuge puncher
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Originally Posted by GJC View Post
Anyone care to discuss that Willie Pep with a punch would have been the best p4P?

thomas hearns with a better chin would have p4p best
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#3
Old 04-23-2009, 01:49 PM
portuge puncher
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Originally Posted by GJC View Post
Anyone care to discuss that Willie Pep with a punch would have been the best p4P?
he still wouldent because the only tough compitition he fought was sandy saddler, sure he fought some good fighters, but none were REALLY great, the featherwieght division back then was not to good.
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#4
Old 04-23-2009, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by portuge puncher View Post
he still wouldent because the only tough compitition he fought was sandy saddler, sure he fought some good fighters, but none were REALLY great, the featherwieght division back then was not to good.
Manuel Ortiz was great.

Chalky Wright is in the hall of fame.

Pep fought and beat more top 10 FW/LW contenders than just about anybody.

It's a bit of a myth that Willie Pep couldn't punch. He chose not to put much power behind his punches because of his style but during his prime years (before the back injury) he was knocking out most of his opponents, for example Sal Bartolo, Chalky Wright, Jock Leslie, Jackie Graves, Lefty LaChance, Charley Lewis...
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#5
Old 04-23-2009, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TheManchine View Post
Manuel Ortiz was great.

Chalky Wright is in the hall of fame.

Pep fought and beat more top 10 FW/LW contenders than just about anybody.

It's a bit of a myth that Willie Pep couldn't punch. He chose not to put much power behind his punches because of his style but during his prime years (before the back injury) he was knocking out most of his opponents, for example Sal Bartolo, Chalky Wright, Jock Leslie, Jackie Graves, Lefty LaChance, Charley Lewis...
Well yes to say he couldn't punch is a bit disingenuous but I meant with a concussive punch more. Willie himself said "He who hits and runs away lives to fight another day."
You are better at stats than me 140 fights with 1 loss? Incredible. I don't know about not fighting tough opposition, how many fighters can you duck in 250 fights?
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#6
Old 04-23-2009, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by GJC View Post
Well yes to say he couldn't punch is a bit disingenuous but I meant with a concussive punch more. Willie himself said "He who hits and runs away lives to fight another day."
You are better at stats than me 140 fights with 1 loss? Incredible. I don't know about not fighting tough opposition, how many fighters can you duck in 250 fights?
Pep ducked no one. He often went up to the lightweight division to challenge himself, fighting some of the most avoided contenders of the day. If you look at the top 10 Ring Magazine featherweight rankings of the 1940's, there were very few ranked challengers that Pep didn't fight.

I don't think he would have been much greater if he had a bigger punch. His style was as said to hit & run. He rarely set his feet to punch.

Perhaps having more strength would have helped him deal with Saddler and Angott in the clinches. He landed a ton of punches on Saddler, a more powerful punch may have helped him there, but it was after the plane crash when Pep had become even less of a puncher than he was in his prime.
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#7
Old 04-23-2009, 02:20 PM
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Willie Pep is one of the all time greatest Boxers in history. He is top 5 with ease. And he could definitely punch. He chose not to focus too much on that.
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#8
Old 04-23-2009, 02:28 PM
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Willie Pep was a breathtaking fighter in his prime and a true ATG. He avoided no one and fought the best fighters he could.

Here's what Historian Mike Silver had to say about Pep
At the absolute pinnacle, you can find some fault with even the greatest of the greats and Pep didn't have great punching power and he wasn't as strong as a lot of other featherweights," said boxing historian Mike Silver. "But he more than made up for that with taking boxing to a level that has not been seen since. It was a very sophisticated way of boxing. The greatest compliment, I think, any boxer could ever get was having Sugar Ray Robinson, say, and I remember him saying this, that he admired Pep's boxing ability more than any other fighter he'd ever seen."

Pep won his first 62 bouts.And at one point in his career held a record of 134-1-1.

He beat top contenders through out his career etc Jackie Graves,Sal Bartolo,Julie Kogon,Jock Leslie, and more. He beat Hall of Famers in Sandy Saddler, Manuel Ortiz, and Chalky Wright.

Although few films of Pep exist, I have studied several of his fights ***8211; including the third and fourth Saddler fights and wins over Ralph Walton and Ray Famechon. as have historian Silver and I'am sure many others.

"His sense of timing was impeccable," said Silver. "If you watch his fights, he never moves too far out of position or too close where he can't land his punches properly. He was always in the right position. He did a lot of things you just don't see a lot of fighters do any more. His footwork was of a type that is also not seen today. You just watched his feet and it was a show itself. He was the Fred Astaire of boxing." said Silver

Here's what Fabela Chavez had to say about fighting Pep Fighting Pep is like trying to stamp out a fire."

Here is some history articles about him
Over the years, this writer has spoken to a pair of men with intimate knowledge of Pep. One shared the ring with him, the other viewed his mastery from the opposing corner.

The late and great trainer, Vic Zimet, trained Curley Nichols for a fight against Pep on May 4, 1942. Pep came way with an eight-round decision. "The fight was in New Haven and it was during the war years," recalled Zimet before he died. "We had to be back in New York the same night. I was in the Coast Guard and Curley was on my ship, a 110-foot cutter. Curley was doing well, holding his own. He was a good boxer, but not in the class of Willie Pep.

"Pep was a very clever boxer. He made extremely quick moves. I appreciate a fighter who can think. You could see his mind working and then he***8217;d execute immediately. He was fun to watch because he was clever. Every move meant something. He was a throwback to the great thinking fighters like Benny Leonard. When I got back to New York I told everyone I just saw the next featherweight champion of the world. Six months later he beat Chalky Wright."

Pat Marcune fought Pep at Madison Square Garden on June 5, 1953 and was stopped in the 10th round. Marcune was tough and talented and beat the likes of Bill Bossio, Eddie Compo and Lauro Salas in his career. It was the 185th fight of Pep***8217;s 242-fight career and the former champion still had enough to win.

"Pep didn't hurt me," said Marcune. "I hit him. He***8217;s in front of you, in back of you. He's all over the damn place. But he never stood toe-to-toe with you. I still don***8217;t know why they stopped the fight. I wasn***8217;t hurt. I wasn***8217;t cut. I got knocked down, I got up. Petey Scalzo was the referee and he stopped the fight. I was a young kid and Pep was on his way out. But Pep was a great boxer. I don't think I could ever duplicate him. I don't think anyone could ever duplicate him. I don't feel bad that I lost to him. He wasn't a bum."

Indeed, he was not a bum. In fact, for years legend had it that Pep actually won a round without throwing a single punch. That myth was debunked when a member of the International Boxing Research Organization (IBRO) researched Pep***8217;s fight against Jackie Graves in 1946.

"Even if that didn***8217;t happen, it was still believable, and that says even more about Pep than if it really happened" said Silver. "There is no other fighter you could even say that about and have it somewhat believable."

Pep retired in 1959, fighting long past his prime. He made a comeback in 1965 and won nine straight before being stopped in his final fight. After a 26-year-career, he retired with a record of 230-11-1 and 65 knockouts.

"If you couldn't write a complete obituary," mused Silver, "if all you could write was Willie Pep, former feather champ passes away and here is his record, 230-11-1, that would be enough. Just that record says enough. Think about those numbers. It's an amazing record."

In my mind Willie Pep is one of the best to ever lace on a pair of gloves, there will never be another him. Pep was unbelivable, and you can't question nothing really about him. A true ATG.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php...boxer&pageID=2


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#9
Old 04-23-2009, 02:44 PM
GJC
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southpaw16bf View Post
Willie Pep was a breathtaking fighter in his prime and a true ATG. He avoided no one and fought the best fighters he could.

Here's what Historian Mike Silver had to say about Pep
At the absolute pinnacle, you can find some fault with even the greatest of the greats and Pep didn't have great punching power and he wasn't as strong as a lot of other featherweights," said boxing historian Mike Silver. "But he more than made up for that with taking boxing to a level that has not been seen since. It was a very sophisticated way of boxing. The greatest compliment, I think, any boxer could ever get was having Sugar Ray Robinson, say, and I remember him saying this, that he admired Pep's boxing ability more than any other fighter he'd ever seen."

Pep won his first 62 bouts.And at one point in his career held a record of 134-1-1.

He beat top contenders through out his career etc Jackie Graves,Sal Bartolo,Julie Kogon,Jock Leslie, and more. He beat Hall of Famers in Sandy Saddler, Manuel Ortiz, and Chalky Wright.

Although few films of Pep exist, I have studied several of his fights ***8211; including the third and fourth Saddler fights and wins over Ralph Walton and Ray Famechon. as have historian Silver and I'am sure many others.

"His sense of timing was impeccable," said Silver. "If you watch his fights, he never moves too far out of position or too close where he can't land his punches properly. He was always in the right position. He did a lot of things you just don't see a lot of fighters do any more. His footwork was of a type that is also not seen today. You just watched his feet and it was a show itself. He was the Fred Astaire of boxing." said Silver

Here's what Fabela Chavez had to say about fighting Pep Fighting Pep is like trying to stamp out a fire."

Here is some history articles about him
Over the years, this writer has spoken to a pair of men with intimate knowledge of Pep. One shared the ring with him, the other viewed his mastery from the opposing corner.

The late and great trainer, Vic Zimet, trained Curley Nichols for a fight against Pep on May 4, 1942. Pep came way with an eight-round decision. "The fight was in New Haven and it was during the war years," recalled Zimet before he died. "We had to be back in New York the same night. I was in the Coast Guard and Curley was on my ship, a 110-foot cutter. Curley was doing well, holding his own. He was a good boxer, but not in the class of Willie Pep.

"Pep was a very clever boxer. He made extremely quick moves. I appreciate a fighter who can think. You could see his mind working and then he***8217;d execute immediately. He was fun to watch because he was clever. Every move meant something. He was a throwback to the great thinking fighters like Benny Leonard. When I got back to New York I told everyone I just saw the next featherweight champion of the world. Six months later he beat Chalky Wright."

Pat Marcune fought Pep at Madison Square Garden on June 5, 1953 and was stopped in the 10th round. Marcune was tough and talented and beat the likes of Bill Bossio, Eddie Compo and Lauro Salas in his career. It was the 185th fight of Pep***8217;s 242-fight career and the former champion still had enough to win.

"Pep didn't hurt me," said Marcune. "I hit him. He***8217;s in front of you, in back of you. He's all over the damn place. But he never stood toe-to-toe with you. I still don***8217;t know why they stopped the fight. I wasn***8217;t hurt. I wasn***8217;t cut. I got knocked down, I got up. Petey Scalzo was the referee and he stopped the fight. I was a young kid and Pep was on his way out. But Pep was a great boxer. I don't think I could ever duplicate him. I don't think anyone could ever duplicate him. I don't feel bad that I lost to him. He wasn't a bum."

Indeed, he was not a bum. In fact, for years legend had it that Pep actually won a round without throwing a single punch. That myth was debunked when a member of the International Boxing Research Organization (IBRO) researched Pep***8217;s fight against Jackie Graves in 1946.

"Even if that didn***8217;t happen, it was still believable, and that says even more about Pep than if it really happened" said Silver. "There is no other fighter you could even say that about and have it somewhat believable."

Pep retired in 1959, fighting long past his prime. He made a comeback in 1965 and won nine straight before being stopped in his final fight. After a 26-year-career, he retired with a record of 230-11-1 and 65 knockouts.

"If you couldn't write a complete obituary," mused Silver, "if all you could write was Willie Pep, former feather champ passes away and here is his record, 230-11-1, that would be enough. Just that record says enough. Think about those numbers. It's an amazing record."

In my mind Willie Pep is one of the best to ever lace on a pair of gloves, there will never be another him. Pep was unbelivable, and you can't question nothing really about him. A true ATG.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php...boxer&pageID=2

Nice post, I was a little misunderstood I think. The point I was trying to make was would Pep rate above SRR (mine and a lot of people all time p4p) if he had "great punching power" I think there could be case and would be interested to hear peoples views on that. I will probably now get slaughtered for denigrating Robinson, which again isn't the point. I think more weight of punch might have given him a better head to head v Sadler.
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#10
Old 04-23-2009, 02:50 PM
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Nice post, I was a little misunderstood I think. The point I was trying to make was would Pep rate above SRR (mine and a lot of people all time p4p) if he had "great punching power" I think there could be case and would be interested to hear peoples views on that. I will probably now get slaughtered for denigrating Robinson, which again isn't the point. I think more weight of punch might have given him a better head to head v Sadler.
Of course, if Pep maybe had more power in his shots and was bit more physically stronger and had not been invovled in that crash, he may had beat Saddler every time they fought. But he didn't, and just to comeback and beat Saddler, after what Pep had been through was legendary victory in it self.

And I know this isn't coming from the biggest Robinson fan, but former Welterweight and Middlweight Champion Carmen Basilio called Pep the best of all time.
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