Bookmark Website  | Free Registration  | The Team
Boxing Champions |  Boxing Schedule |  Boxing Video  |  Boxing History   |  Pound For Pound  | Lounge  | The Wire |  Audio  | Arcade

Navigation
Go Back   Boxing Forum > Boxing Forums > Boxing History
Reply
Thread Navigation

#11
Old 04-08-2009, 02:20 PM
Southpaw16BF
....
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,078
Rep Power: 13 Southpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 622,906.73
Bank: 88,495.60
Total Points: 711,402.33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheManchine View Post
He could have probably made the welterweight limit but I don't know about 135 lbs.

It's ridiculous though that some people think he could've competed against Hagler (and the other members of Fab 4) but then again Hagler himself was very impressed by Ayala's boxing ability. He commentated on some of Ayala Jr's early pro fights and complimented him but in truth Ayala was nowhere near ready to take on a fighter like Hagler and probably never would've been, prison or not.

I certainly don't regard him as one of the greatest prospects ever. Rosario was atleast as impressive at the time, in my opinion even more so. He was actually knocking out good competition, the same can't be said for Ayala.
You say the same thing can't be said for Ayala fighting good competion. In his last two fights before his first prison stint, Ayala defeated Carlos Maria del Valle Herrera, stopping in 3 rounds. Only 2 years earlier Herrera had fought for the WBC jr Middleweight title losing a hard fought 15 round decision to Maurice Hope. Herrera also held a win over Emiliano Villa a decent fighter in his own right.

Ayala also fought another world title challager in Steve Gregory, Gregory had fought for the WBA 154 world title losing a UD to Ayub Kalule(31-0), Ayala would KO him in 3 rounds only 3 years later.

And another half decent win was Nicanor Camacho who at the time was 7-0-1and had beat Jesus Castro who was 17-4-0. Ayala beat him UD 10.

Now when you look at Rosario's first 19 fights, there is also some good competition but there is hardly nothing between the two. Ayala fought two world title challagers and some half decent names, so the way you made out the caliber Ayala was fighting was terrible is not true as i have just proved, and Ayala was also looking impressive doing it.
Reply With Quote
Southpaw16BF is offline
Advertisements
>>>TO REMOVE THESE ADS, PLEASE REGISTER HERE FOR FREE<<<
#12
Old 04-08-2009, 02:33 PM
TheGreatA
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 14,316
Rep Power: 42 TheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 1,000,242,067.86
Bank: 109,281,151,904.51
Total Points: 110,281,393,972.37
To a great poster!! - abosworth great poster. - Melly-Mel For finding the Guzman stream, when nobody else could. - The_Bringer Just wanted to keep the pattern going Machine - danc1984 One of NSBs best contributors - BostonGuy 
7000 posts, congrats!! - JAB5239 To the LinkMaster! - S a m u r a i Respects to a great poster - Gift Of Gab Props on the picture! :lol1: - Spacey1991 Jussi Jääskeläinen - ЯiZО 
For Busting Rafael Benitez aka Slimey Limey - poet682006 To Celebrate The Exposure Of Rafael Benitez aka Slimey Limey - poet682006 thanks for the lesson! - mellow_mood This gift is for the videos you posted on my Tyson/Patterson thread a while back.  I recently noticed you posted some great interview videos of Patterson on the thread which I missed at the time because I didn’t follow up on checking the responses. - Benny Leonard For doing a great Glen Johnson highlight video! - St Lion 
To a great historian - Stoppage Good debate. No hard feelings. - Method Checker HERES TO YOU LEFTY - markbnlv Thanks for sharing your boxing knowledge. - Talisayen No Message - dancovboxer 
Hepatitis C - BattlingNelson World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - MARKBNLV 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southpaw16bf View Post
You say the same thing can't be said for Ayala fighting good competion. In his last two fights before his first prison stint, Ayala defeated Carlos Maria del Valle Herrera, stopping in 3 rounds. Only 2 years earlier Herrera had fought for the WBC jr Middleweight title losing a hard fought 15 round decision to Maurice Hope. Herrera also held a win over Emiliano Villa a decent fighter in his own right.
Herrera had been KO'd by unheralded JL Santana in between and went on to get knocked out more than a couple times afterwards.

Quote:
Ayala also fought another world title challager in Steve Gregory, Gregory had fought for the WBA 154 world title losing a UD to Ayub Kalule(31-0), Ayala would KO him in 3 rounds only 3 years later.
Gregory was also knocked out by Charlie Weir in between those fights and went on to get KO'd twice in the early rounds afterwards.

Quote:
Now when you look at Rosario's first 19 fights, there is also some good competition but there is hardly nothing between the two. Ayala fought two world title challagers and some half decent names, so the way you made out the caliber Ayala was fighting was terrible is not true as i have just proved, and Ayala was also looking impressive doing it.
Rosario didn't fight great opposition early on but he KO'd Edwin Viruet in three rounds, at the same time that Ayala was fighting De Asa, Gregory, Ramsey, and won the title against JL Ramirez in 1983 when Ayala went to prison.

Last edited by TheManchine; 04-08-2009 at 02:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
TheGreatA is offline
#13
Old 04-08-2009, 02:41 PM
Southpaw16BF
....
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,078
Rep Power: 13 Southpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 622,906.73
Bank: 88,495.60
Total Points: 711,402.33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheManchine View Post
Herrera had been KO'd by unheralded JL Santana in between and went on to get knocked out more than a couple times afterwards.



Gregory was also knocked out by Charlie Weir in between those fights and went on to get KO'd twice in the early rounds afterwards.



Rosario didn't fight great opposition early on but he KO'd Edwin Viruet in three rounds, at the same time that Ayala was fighting De Asa, Gregory, Ramsey, and won the title from JL Ramirez in 1983 when Ayala went to prison.
But around the time Ayala went to jail, he also was getting his world title shot agaisnt Davey Moore, and there was also talk of a Roberto Duran showdown, as him and Duran had been bad mouthing each other for some time. So Ayala Jr would of got his title shot around the same time as Rosario did.

And yes maybe both Herrera and Weir didn't go on to do much, but both had fought for world titles in the last 3 years, and Ayala beat them both in convincing fashion. So in my mind 2 decent victories for a prospect.

Last edited by Southpaw16bf; 04-08-2009 at 02:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
Southpaw16BF is offline
#14
Old 04-08-2009, 02:42 PM
TheGreatA
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 14,316
Rep Power: 42 TheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 1,000,242,067.86
Bank: 109,281,151,904.51
Total Points: 110,281,393,972.37
To a great poster!! - abosworth great poster. - Melly-Mel For finding the Guzman stream, when nobody else could. - The_Bringer Just wanted to keep the pattern going Machine - danc1984 One of NSBs best contributors - BostonGuy 
7000 posts, congrats!! - JAB5239 To the LinkMaster! - S a m u r a i Respects to a great poster - Gift Of Gab Props on the picture! :lol1: - Spacey1991 Jussi Jääskeläinen - ЯiZО 
For Busting Rafael Benitez aka Slimey Limey - poet682006 To Celebrate The Exposure Of Rafael Benitez aka Slimey Limey - poet682006 thanks for the lesson! - mellow_mood This gift is for the videos you posted on my Tyson/Patterson thread a while back.  I recently noticed you posted some great interview videos of Patterson on the thread which I missed at the time because I didn’t follow up on checking the responses. - Benny Leonard For doing a great Glen Johnson highlight video! - St Lion 
To a great historian - Stoppage Good debate. No hard feelings. - Method Checker HERES TO YOU LEFTY - markbnlv Thanks for sharing your boxing knowledge. - Talisayen No Message - dancovboxer 
Hepatitis C - BattlingNelson World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - MARKBNLV 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southpaw16bf View Post
But around the time Ayala went to jail, he also was getting his world title shot agaisnt Davey Moore, and there was also talk of a Roberto Duran showdown, as him and Duran had been bad mouthing each other for some time. So Ayala Jr would of got his title shot around the same time as Rosario did.
Possibly but I don't think he would've beaten Duran. He may have beaten Moore but even that isn't for sure. People tend to forget that Moore was an accomplished fighter despite having very few pro fights.
Reply With Quote
TheGreatA is offline
#15
Old 04-08-2009, 02:47 PM
Yogi
Hey, Boo Boo
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Jellystone Park
Age: 47
Posts: 2,755
Rep Power: 143 Yogi has a reputation beyond reputeYogi has a reputation beyond reputeYogi has a reputation beyond reputeYogi has a reputation beyond reputeYogi has a reputation beyond reputeYogi has a reputation beyond reputeYogi has a reputation beyond reputeYogi has a reputation beyond reputeYogi has a reputation beyond reputeYogi has a reputation beyond reputeYogi has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 39,825.36
Bank: 0.00
Total Points: 39,825.36
Boxingscene's elite - !! AI-Holmes!! To a clever bear. A Superbear! - BatTheMan 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southpaw16bf View Post
Maybe some people did think it was Edwin Rosario, but this article isn't alone in thinking Ayala was the best prospect of all time. The legendary Angelo Dundee also had the same opinion.
For every Dundee giving Ayala compliments there was a Cus D' Amato saying that "I have never seen a fighter who has more natural talent than Edwin Rosario", which was a comment made by Cus in 1981 while Rosario was still in his prospect days, so that's a wash.

And for being on the cover of a American boxing publication back in the 80's, well those prospects that were selected for those spots were generally Amercian (like Ayala, Tyson, Breland...who was featured on the front covers of all the boxing mags when still an amatuer or just starting his pro career) or at the very least loaded with charisma like say a Camacho. Rosario was neither, as, while he had a pretty exciting style, he wasn't helped by being the soft spoken type who didn't speak a word of English. The substance inside those magazines , though, didn't make any distinction between Ayala and Rosario as far as their prospects for the future went, and again, they were often times lumped together as the two best prospects of the early 80's.

Whether he has an award named after him or not, being a "waste of talent" is self explanatory and different than being a then-prospect, as Rosario actually went on and accomplished a few things of significance during his career, although they were not quite up to what the boxing community had envisioned of him earlier. Ayala being more of a "waste" than Rosario doesn't make him the better prospect in those 1981-82 years.
Reply With Quote
Yogi is offline
#16
Old 04-08-2009, 03:40 PM
cotto16
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,104
Rep Power: 11 cotto16 has a reputation beyond reputecotto16 has a reputation beyond reputecotto16 has a reputation beyond reputecotto16 has a reputation beyond reputecotto16 has a reputation beyond reputecotto16 has a reputation beyond reputecotto16 has a reputation beyond reputecotto16 has a reputation beyond reputecotto16 has a reputation beyond reputecotto16 has a reputation beyond reputecotto16 has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 1,393,675.54
Bank: 2,825.20
Total Points: 1,396,500.75
Default

Ayala against benitez, learnard, duran and davey moore are some of the best fights never to happen. Ayala's dad trained gerald mccellan for one of the g man's middleweight fights you see ayala snr in the coner. I still find the stoy of a 14 year old ayala geting the better of then welterweight champion and pound for pound one of the hardest hitters cuevas incredible!! that story will still be geting told in 50 years time.
Reply With Quote
cotto16 is offline
#17
Old 04-08-2009, 04:33 PM
Southpaw16BF
....
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,078
Rep Power: 13 Southpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 622,906.73
Bank: 88,495.60
Total Points: 711,402.33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheManchine View Post
Possibly but I don't think he would've beaten Duran. He may have beaten Moore but even that isn't for sure. People tend to forget that Moore was an accomplished fighter despite having very few pro fights.
Agreed people do tend to forget that Moore was a accomplished fighter. He won the WBA title from Tadashi Mihara(15-0) and made 3 defences the title against Charlie Weir, Ayub Kalule, and Gary Guiden.

But then he got Roberto Duran, and i don't think he knew quite what type of Duran he was dealing with that night, as in Duran's last 4 fight he was 2-2, and in those set of fights had been beat by tricky Brit Kirkland Laing 23-3-1 who was a decent/good britsh fighter and struggled against Englands Jimmy Batten. But he had looked very impressive the fight before against Pipino Cuevas.

And after that it all went down hill, he got a win over Wilfred Benitez due to Benitez breaking his ankle in the second. And then he would fail in a bid to capture the IBF 154 title against Buster Drayton and then he would have 6 more fights, before suffering a freak acciedent that would kill him at the age of 29. Very Sad.

As for could Ayala beating Duran, i dout it would of happened unless Duran had under trained or was under motivated, which i dout. Duran would of had to much expreince and knew to much fo the 19 year old baby bull.

But Ayala/Moore would of been alot more interesting.

Last edited by Southpaw16bf; 04-08-2009 at 08:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
Southpaw16BF is offline
#18
Old 04-08-2009, 05:00 PM
Southpaw16BF
....
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,078
Rep Power: 13 Southpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 622,906.73
Bank: 88,495.60
Total Points: 711,402.33
Default

Roberto Duran vs Davey Moore
WBA Jr Middlweight Championship Of The World.




Reply With Quote
Southpaw16BF is offline
#19
Old 04-12-2009, 04:58 PM
Southpaw16BF
....
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,078
Rep Power: 13 Southpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond reputeSouthpaw16BF has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 622,906.73
Bank: 88,495.60
Total Points: 711,402.33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheManchine View Post
He could have probably made the welterweight limit but I don't know about 135 lbs.

It's ridiculous though that some people think he could've competed against Hagler (and the other members of Fab 4) but then again Hagler himself was very impressed by Ayala's boxing ability. He commentated on some of Ayala Jr's early pro fights and complimented him but in truth Ayala was nowhere near ready to take on a fighter like Hagler and probably never would've been, prison or not.

I certainly don't regard him as one of the greatest prospects ever. Rosario was atleast as impressive at the time, in my opinion even more so. He was actually knocking out good competition, the same can't be said for Ayala.
Managed to find The Ring Magzaine 1982 issue, and look at there rating at the time of September 1982.

''Machine'' you say he never really fought much competition, Ring Magzine have him rated Number #2 at Jr Middlweight.
Here are the rating of Sep 1982 of ''Ring Magazine''
1.Wilfred Benitez
2.Tony Ayala Jr
3.Davey Moore
4.Carlos Herrera
5.Ayub Kalule
6.Charlie Weir
7.Gary Guiden
8.Roberto Duran
9.Clint Jackson
10.Mike McCallum

Now to become Number 2 in your weight division, is a pretty good achievement in its own right. And especailly as one as stacked as that. And this was my point,the competition Ayala was fighting wasn't as bad as you made out. And was just as good as Edwin Rosario was. (Who is only rated number 3 in his weight division).
Reply With Quote
Southpaw16BF is offline
#20
Old 04-12-2009, 05:28 PM
TheGreatA
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Finland
Posts: 14,316
Rep Power: 42 TheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond reputeTheGreatA has a reputation beyond repute
Points: 1,000,242,067.86
Bank: 109,281,151,904.51
Total Points: 110,281,393,972.37
To a great poster!! - abosworth great poster. - Melly-Mel For finding the Guzman stream, when nobody else could. - The_Bringer Just wanted to keep the pattern going Machine - danc1984 One of NSBs best contributors - BostonGuy 
7000 posts, congrats!! - JAB5239 To the LinkMaster! - S a m u r a i Respects to a great poster - Gift Of Gab Props on the picture! :lol1: - Spacey1991 Jussi Jääskeläinen - ЯiZО 
For Busting Rafael Benitez aka Slimey Limey - poet682006 To Celebrate The Exposure Of Rafael Benitez aka Slimey Limey - poet682006 thanks for the lesson! - mellow_mood This gift is for the videos you posted on my Tyson/Patterson thread a while back.  I recently noticed you posted some great interview videos of Patterson on the thread which I missed at the time because I didn’t follow up on checking the responses. - Benny Leonard For doing a great Glen Johnson highlight video! - St Lion 
To a great historian - Stoppage Good debate. No hard feelings. - Method Checker HERES TO YOU LEFTY - markbnlv Thanks for sharing your boxing knowledge. - Talisayen No Message - dancovboxer 
Hepatitis C - BattlingNelson World Trade Center Victims and Heroes - Fireworks Safety - MARKBNLV 
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southpaw16bf View Post
Managed to find The Ring Magzaine 1982 issue, and look at there rating at the time of September 1982.

''Machine'' you say he never really fought much competition, Ring Magzine have him rated Number #2 at Jr Middlweight.
Here are the rating of Sep 1982 of ''Ring Magazine''
1.Wilfred Benitez
2.Tony Ayala Jr
3.Davey Moore
4.Carlos Herrera
5.Ayub Kalule
6.Charlie Weir
7.Gary Guiden
8.Roberto Duran
9.Clint Jackson
10.Mike McCallum

Now to become Number 2 in your weight division, is a pretty good achievement in its own right. And especailly as one as stacked as that. And this was my point,the competition Ayala was fighting wasn't as bad as you made out. And was just as good as Edwin Rosario was. (Who is only rated number 3 in his weight division).
Ayala Jr did not beat a single top 10 ranked opponent aside from Carlos Herrera who for whatever reason was still ranked despite having no wins over top opposition and a recent KO loss to an unheralded opponent.

Rosario was number 3 because of the Ring Magazine's questionable decision to rate Aaron Pryor as the number 1 contender at lightweight despite Pryor fighting at 140 lbs.

Both were rated very highly due to their potential and because of what everyone thought they would go on to achieve. In the end Ayala Jr went to prison and Rosario went onto have a good career, although not as good as people thought he would have because of his drug abuse.

Ayala Jr was far from the greatest prospect in boxing history when he was no better than Rosario in his own time.
Reply With Quote
TheGreatA is offline
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
(tony, ayala, boxing, greatest, prospect.

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Privacy Policy - Submit News - Feedback - Site Map - Advertise with Us

Copyright © 2003-2013 BoxingScene LLC All rights reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:47 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.