Boxing Greatest Ever Prospect. (Tony Ayala Jr)

[Southpaw16BF]

Originally Posted by TheManchine

He could have probably made the welterweight limit but I don't know about 135 lbs.

It's ridiculous though that some people think he could've competed against Hagler (and the other members of Fab 4) but then again Hagler himself was very impressed by Ayala's boxing ability. He commentated on some of Ayala Jr's early pro fights and complimented him but in truth Ayala was nowhere near ready to take on a fighter like Hagler and probably never would've been, prison or not.

I certainly don't regard him as one of the greatest prospects ever. Rosario was atleast as impressive at the time, in my opinion even more so. He was actually knocking out good competition, the same can't be said for Ayala.

You say the same thing can't be said for Ayala fighting good competion. In his last two fights before his first prison stint, Ayala defeated Carlos Maria del Valle Herrera, stopping in 3 rounds. Only 2 years earlier Herrera had fought for the WBC jr Middleweight title losing a hard fought 15 round decision to Maurice Hope. Herrera also held a win over Emiliano Villa a decent fighter in his own right.

Ayala also fought another world title challager in Steve Gregory, Gregory had fought for the WBA 154 world title losing a UD to Ayub Kalule(31-0), Ayala would KO him in 3 rounds only 3 years later.

And another half decent win was Nicanor Camacho who at the time was 7-0-1and had beat Jesus Castro who was 17-4-0. Ayala beat him UD 10.

Now when you look at Rosario's first 19 fights, there is also some good competition but there is hardly nothing between the two. Ayala fought two world title challagers and some half decent names, so the way you made out the caliber Ayala was fighting was terrible is not true as i have just proved, and Ayala was also looking impressive doing it.

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by Southpaw16bf

You say the same thing can't be said for Ayala fighting good competion. In his last two fights before his first prison stint, Ayala defeated Carlos Maria del Valle Herrera, stopping in 3 rounds. Only 2 years earlier Herrera had fought for the WBC jr Middleweight title losing a hard fought 15 round decision to Maurice Hope. Herrera also held a win over Emiliano Villa a decent fighter in his own right.

Herrera had been KO'd by unheralded JL Santana in between and went on to get knocked out more than a couple times afterwards.

Ayala also fought another world title challager in Steve Gregory, Gregory had fought for the WBA 154 world title losing a UD to Ayub Kalule(31-0), Ayala would KO him in 3 rounds only 3 years later.

Gregory was also knocked out by Charlie Weir in between those fights and went on to get KO'd twice in the early rounds afterwards.

Now when you look at Rosario's first 19 fights, there is also some good competition but there is hardly nothing between the two. Ayala fought two world title challagers and some half decent names, so the way you made out the caliber Ayala was fighting was terrible is not true as i have just proved, and Ayala was also looking impressive doing it.

Rosario didn't fight great opposition early on but he KO'd Edwin Viruet in three rounds, at the same time that Ayala was fighting De Asa, Gregory, Ramsey, and won the title against JL Ramirez in 1983 when Ayala went to prison.

[Southpaw16BF]

Originally Posted by TheManchine

Herrera had been KO'd by unheralded JL Santana in between and went on to get knocked out more than a couple times afterwards.



Gregory was also knocked out by Charlie Weir in between those fights and went on to get KO'd twice in the early rounds afterwards.



Rosario didn't fight great opposition early on but he KO'd Edwin Viruet in three rounds, at the same time that Ayala was fighting De Asa, Gregory, Ramsey, and won the title from JL Ramirez in 1983 when Ayala went to prison.

But around the time Ayala went to jail, he also was getting his world title shot agaisnt Davey Moore, and there was also talk of a Roberto Duran showdown, as him and Duran had been bad mouthing each other for some time. So Ayala Jr would of got his title shot around the same time as Rosario did.

And yes maybe both Herrera and Weir didn't go on to do much, but both had fought for world titles in the last 3 years, and Ayala beat them both in convincing fashion. So in my mind 2 decent victories for a prospect.

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by Southpaw16bf

But around the time Ayala went to jail, he also was getting his world title shot agaisnt Davey Moore, and there was also talk of a Roberto Duran showdown, as him and Duran had been bad mouthing each other for some time. So Ayala Jr would of got his title shot around the same time as Rosario did.

Possibly but I don't think he would've beaten Duran. He may have beaten Moore but even that isn't for sure. People tend to forget that Moore was an accomplished fighter despite having very few pro fights.

[Yogi]

Originally Posted by Southpaw16bf

Maybe some people did think it was Edwin Rosario, but this article isn't alone in thinking Ayala was the best prospect of all time. The legendary Angelo Dundee also had the same opinion.

For every Dundee giving Ayala compliments there was a Cus D' Amato saying that "I have never seen a fighter who has more natural talent than Edwin Rosario", which was a comment made by Cus in 1981 while Rosario was still in his prospect days, so that's a wash.

And for being on the cover of a American boxing publication back in the 80's, well those prospects that were selected for those spots were generally Amercian (like Ayala, Tyson, Breland...who was featured on the front covers of all the boxing mags when still an amatuer or just starting his pro career) or at the very least loaded with charisma like say a Camacho. Rosario was neither, as, while he had a pretty exciting style, he wasn't helped by being the soft spoken type who didn't speak a word of English. The substance inside those magazines , though, didn't make any distinction between Ayala and Rosario as far as their prospects for the future went, and again, they were often times lumped together as the two best prospects of the early 80's.

Whether he has an award named after him or not, being a "waste of talent" is self explanatory and different than being a then-prospect, as Rosario actually went on and accomplished a few things of significance during his career, although they were not quite up to what the boxing community had envisioned of him earlier. Ayala being more of a "waste" than Rosario doesn't make him the better prospect in those 1981-82 years.

[cotto16]

Ayala against benitez, learnard, duran and davey moore are some of the best fights never to happen. Ayala's dad trained gerald mccellan for one of the g man's middleweight fights you see ayala snr in the coner. I still find the stoy of a 14 year old ayala geting the better of then welterweight champion and pound for pound one of the hardest hitters cuevas incredible!! that story will still be geting told in 50 years time.

[Southpaw16BF]

Originally Posted by TheManchine

Possibly but I don't think he would've beaten Duran. He may have beaten Moore but even that isn't for sure. People tend to forget that Moore was an accomplished fighter despite having very few pro fights.

Agreed people do tend to forget that Moore was a accomplished fighter. He won the WBA title from Tadashi Mihara(15-0) and made 3 defences the title against Charlie Weir, Ayub Kalule, and Gary Guiden.

But then he got Roberto Duran, and i don't think he knew quite what type of Duran he was dealing with that night, as in Duran's last 4 fight he was 2-2, and in those set of fights had been beat by tricky Brit Kirkland Laing 23-3-1 who was a decent/good britsh fighter and struggled against Englands Jimmy Batten. But he had looked very impressive the fight before against Pipino Cuevas.

And after that it all went down hill, he got a win over Wilfred Benitez due to Benitez breaking his ankle in the second. And then he would fail in a bid to capture the IBF 154 title against Buster Drayton and then he would have 6 more fights, before suffering a freak acciedent that would kill him at the age of 29. Very Sad.

As for could Ayala beating Duran, i dout it would of happened unless Duran had under trained or was under motivated, which i dout. Duran would of had to much expreince and knew to much fo the 19 year old baby bull.

But Ayala/Moore would of been alot more interesting.

[Southpaw16BF]

Roberto Duran vs Davey Moore
WBA Jr Middlweight Championship Of The World.

[Southpaw16BF]

Originally Posted by TheManchine

He could have probably made the welterweight limit but I don't know about 135 lbs.

It's ridiculous though that some people think he could've competed against Hagler (and the other members of Fab 4) but then again Hagler himself was very impressed by Ayala's boxing ability. He commentated on some of Ayala Jr's early pro fights and complimented him but in truth Ayala was nowhere near ready to take on a fighter like Hagler and probably never would've been, prison or not.

I certainly don't regard him as one of the greatest prospects ever. Rosario was atleast as impressive at the time, in my opinion even more so. He was actually knocking out good competition, the same can't be said for Ayala.

Managed to find The Ring Magzaine 1982 issue, and look at there rating at the time of September 1982.

''Machine'' you say he never really fought much competition, Ring Magzine have him rated Number #2 at Jr Middlweight.
Here are the rating of Sep 1982 of ''Ring Magazine''
1.Wilfred Benitez
2.Tony Ayala Jr
3.Davey Moore
4.Carlos Herrera
5.Ayub Kalule
6.Charlie Weir
7.Gary Guiden
8.Roberto Duran
9.Clint Jackson
10.Mike McCallum

Now to become Number 2 in your weight division, is a pretty good achievement in its own right. And especailly as one as stacked as that. And this was my point,the competition Ayala was fighting wasn't as bad as you made out. And was just as good as Edwin Rosario was. (Who is only rated number 3 in his weight division).

[TheGreatA]

Originally Posted by Southpaw16bf

Managed to find The Ring Magzaine 1982 issue, and look at there rating at the time of September 1982.

''Machine'' you say he never really fought much competition, Ring Magzine have him rated Number #2 at Jr Middlweight.
Here are the rating of Sep 1982 of ''Ring Magazine''
1.Wilfred Benitez
2.Tony Ayala Jr
3.Davey Moore
4.Carlos Herrera
5.Ayub Kalule
6.Charlie Weir
7.Gary Guiden
8.Roberto Duran
9.Clint Jackson
10.Mike McCallum

Now to become Number 2 in your weight division, is a pretty good achievement in its own right. And especailly as one as stacked as that. And this was my point,the competition Ayala was fighting wasn't as bad as you made out. And was just as good as Edwin Rosario was. (Who is only rated number 3 in his weight division).

Ayala Jr did not beat a single top 10 ranked opponent aside from Carlos Herrera who for whatever reason was still ranked despite having no wins over top opposition and a recent KO loss to an unheralded opponent.

Rosario was number 3 because of the Ring Magazine's questionable decision to rate Aaron Pryor as the number 1 contender at lightweight despite Pryor fighting at 140 lbs.

Both were rated very highly due to their potential and because of what everyone thought they would go on to achieve. In the end Ayala Jr went to prison and Rosario went onto have a good career, although not as good as people thought he would have because of his drug abuse.

Ayala Jr was far from the greatest prospect in boxing history when he was no better than Rosario in his own time.