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#1
Old 03-10-2009, 02:04 PM
TheGreatA
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Default Battling Nelson gets knocked out by Owen Moran



One of the few times that Battling Nelson was ever stopped.

Nelson is the taller of the two.
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#2
Old 03-11-2009, 06:13 AM
LondonRingRules
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheManchine View Post
One of the few times that Battling Nelson was ever stopped.

Nelson is the taller of the two.
** Great stuff. Battling Nelson at least remains as a legend down to his Gans fights, but Moran has been lost in the mists of time.

A shame as he seems to be well skilled and suited to the task of chopping a bigger stronger fighter down, never letting him off the hook when hurt.

Nice little comedy moment when Nelson holds his glove out to Moran to quit as the ref is counting and the seconds and crowd jump into the ring. Poor ref maintains decorum by seperating Nelson, looking him in the eye, and giving him the "final count."
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#3
Old 03-11-2009, 10:31 AM
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I'm not sure what the official weights were but the 5'7 Battling Nelson had a 4 inch height advantage over the 5'3 Owen Moran.

I don't think Nelson was ever the same after the beating he received from Ad Wolgast but this was a very impressive win for Owen Moran whether Nelson was at his best or not. No one after him was ever able to stop the Durable Dane, not even the lightweight champion Freddie Welsh when Nelson was 35 years old.

Moran also held wins over Ad Wolgast and George Dixon but he was never able to escape with a decision better than a draw in many fights against Abe Attell, Jim Driscoll and Packey McFarland.

Some footage of the Nelson-Wolgast fight can be seen here:

http://www.geocities.com/jcbunnell/movie/

Nelson vs Gans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwE-G2AaRF8

Last edited by TheManchine; 03-11-2009 at 10:37 AM.
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#4
Old 03-11-2009, 03:21 PM
BattlingNelson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheManchine View Post

One of the few times that Battling Nelson was ever stopped.

Nelson is the taller of the two.
There's 3 losses inside the distance on Nelsons record. He was stopped in round 40 against Ad Wolgast where the ref. stopped the fight. He also lost to Eddie Sterns in 1903 which Nelson in his biography states was a gift from the ref. since Nelson was dominating him. In Nelson biography the fight is listed as L-9. It's perhaps more possible that Nelson was DQ'ed.

And then there's this fight. It's the first time I've seen it and in great quality also. Excellent find Manchine and thanks for posting

This is the only time Nelson was counted out and still the final ten evidently first is told after the fight is stopped. I'm quite impressed that Nelson is standing in the end as that first KD looked really heavy.

It's worth noting that Moran had killed Tommy McCarthy in the ring 6 months earlier. Moran was charged with manslaughter but wasn't convicted. That ring death might have contributed to the ref stopping this fight since Bat was known for an inhuman ability to absorb punishment.

According to Tha San Francisco call Nelson said the following after the fight:

"I was rising from the ring floor when Referee Selig counted me out,
and I feel that I got the worst of the count. l am satisfied that I could
have stalled the round out and come back strong in the next round with
a chance of winning. When Moran clipped me on, the jaw he put me down
clean, but l always had my senses with me and deliberately took advantage
of the succeeding counts in order to finish out the round.
I distinctly heard Selig tolling off the seconds for the last knockdown,
and was off the floor when he declared Moran the winner. I was
raising myself from the floor and was clear of the canvas and ready to
straighten up and fight again when the fight was taken from me. Selig
only counted nine, and as I started to straighten up he gave Moran
the fight. I feel that Selig acted in accordance with his judgment and
meant to be fair,but I think he lost his head in the excitement following
the first knockdown and took away my chances to come back. Nobody
can convince me that Moran is my master, and all I ask is another chance
to show that I am not a "has been.""


Moran said:

"Next to the fact that I have the honor of scoring the first clean
knockout from Nelson I feel happy over the fact that Ihave demonstrated
to the American public that I have a punch. ' Before today it
was widely heralded that I did not have a winning punch. I know that
I had one, and I am glad that I had the chance to prove it.
At no time during the fight did Nelson have me in distress. He kept
coming as he has done in all his fights, but he could not come too fast
for me. I think that those who saw the fight will admit that I took care
of myself at every stage of the game and ably protected myself in the
clinches, which is the game at which Nelson was supposed to be strong.
I have chased Nelson all over the country for three years to get a fight,
feeling that I could whip him, and the fact that I did makes up for all
the trouble I have been put to in getting a match with him. .'
But don't let any one lose sight of the fact that Nelson is a "hard
nut to crack." He is one of the gamest men that ever put on a glove,
The way he tried to get on his feet and fight after repeated knockdowns
in the eleventh round was one of the best showings of grit I have ever
seen. Although Nelson is a whipped man today, he is one of the greatest
fighters the world has ever known, and it will be a long time before a
man in the ring will establish a record such as the Battler's."
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#5
Old 03-11-2009, 03:32 PM
TheGreatA
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BattlingNelson View Post
There's 3 losses inside the distance on Nelsons record. He was stopped in round 40 against Ad Wolgast where the ref. stopped the fight. He also lost to Eddie Sterns in 1903 which Nelson in his biography states was a gift from the ref. since Nelson was dominating him. In Nelson biography the fight is listed as L-9. It's perhaps more possible that Nelson was DQ'ed.

And then there's this fight. It's the first time I've seen it and in great quality also. Excellent find Manchine and thanks for posting

This is the only time Nelson was counted out and still the final ten evidently first is told after the fight is stopped. I'm quite impressed that Nelson is standing in the end as that first KD looked really heavy.

It's worth noting that Moran had killed Tommy McCarthy in the ring 6 months earlier. Moran was charged with manslaughter but wasn't convicted. That ring death might have contributed to the ref stopping this fight since Bat was known for an inhuman ability to absorb punishment.

According to Tha San Francisco call Nelson said the following after the fight:

"I was rising from the ring floor when Referee Selig counted me out,
and I feel that I got the worst of the count. l am satisfied that I could
have stalled the round out and come back strong in the next round with
a chance of winning. When Moran clipped me on, the jaw he put me down
clean, but l always had my senses with me and deliberately took advantage
of the succeeding counts in order to finish out the round.
I distinctly heard Selig tolling off the seconds for the last knockdown,
and was off the floor when he declared Moran the winner. I was
raising myself from the floor and was clear of the canvas and ready to
straighten up and fight again when the fight was taken from me. Selig
only counted nine, and as I started to straighten up he gave Moran
the fight. I feel that Selig acted in accordance with his judgment and
meant to be fair,but I think he lost his head in the excitement following
the first knockdown and took away my chances to come back. Nobody
can convince me that Moran is my master, and all I ask is another chance
to show that I am not a "has been.""


Moran said:

"Next to the fact that I have the honor of scoring the first clean
knockout from Nelson I feel happy over the fact that Ihave demonstrated
to the American public that I have a punch. ' Before today it
was widely heralded that I did not have a winning punch. I know that
I had one, and I am glad that I had the chance to prove it.
At no time during the fight did Nelson have me in distress. He kept
coming as he has done in all his fights, but he could not come too fast
for me. I think that those who saw the fight will admit that I took care
of myself at every stage of the game and ably protected myself in the
clinches, which is the game at which Nelson was supposed to be strong.
I have chased Nelson all over the country for three years to get a fight,
feeling that I could whip him, and the fact that I did makes up for all
the trouble I have been put to in getting a match with him. .'
But don't let any one lose sight of the fact that Nelson is a "hard
nut to crack." He is one of the gamest men that ever put on a glove,
The way he tried to get on his feet and fight after repeated knockdowns
in the eleventh round was one of the best showings of grit I have ever
seen. Although Nelson is a whipped man today, he is one of the greatest
fighters the world has ever known, and it will be a long time before a
man in the ring will establish a record such as the Battler's."
Thanks for posting the post-fight statements from both fighters. I had never read them before.

The first knockdown was impressive, especially with the way everyone in the crowd stood up right after Nelson went down, and equally impressive was the fact that Battling Nelson got up and continued getting up.
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#6
Old 03-11-2009, 04:25 PM
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for being a cool poster in history section - led BattlingNelson &amp;gt; LeCrétin - Freedom Fighter A man who has superior boxing knowledge &amp;amp; integrity. - Terry A ATG poster on BoxingScene - rorymac Happy Holidays.. - !! AI-Holmes!! 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheManchine View Post
I'm not sure what the official weights were but the 5'7 Battling Nelson had a 4 inch height advantage over the 5'3 Owen Moran.

I don't think Nelson was ever the same after the beating he received from Ad Wolgast but this was a very impressive win for Owen Moran whether Nelson was at his best or not. No one after him was ever able to stop the Durable Dane, not even the lightweight champion Freddie Welsh when Nelson was 35 years old.

Moran also held wins over Ad Wolgast and George Dixon but he was never able to escape with a decision better than a draw in many fights against Abe Attell, Jim Driscoll and Packey McFarland.

Some footage of the Nelson-Wolgast fight can be seen here:

http://www.geocities.com/jcbunnell/movie/
I posted the above link in a thread I made shortly after joining this forum. It was to show the famous double knockdown of the Wolgast-Rivers fight. Oddly enough I cannot see the clips today I wonder what software I have changed.

I would really love to see some more footage of the Wolgast-Nelson fight which is one of the bloodiest and dirtiest fight ever fought. The 2 fighters hated each others guts and agreed that it was a fight to the finish and that there should be no rules.

It ended when the ref intervened to save Nelson after he had, in the words of one newspaper account, "recieved a beating such as old-time ring followers maintain never before was seen in the ring." Nelson, who couldn't see anymore, protested the stoppage, and after the fight he kept insisting that he was the still champion because the ref never actually counted him out.

Anyway the fight was recorded and shown in cinemas across the states, making good box-office money, so there must be some footage somewhere.
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#7
Old 03-11-2009, 05:28 PM
LondonRingRules
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BattlingNelson View Post
I posted the above link in a thread I made shortly after joining this forum. It was to show the famous double knockdown of the Wolgast-Rivers fight. Oddly enough I cannot see the clips today I wonder what software I have changed.

I would really love to see some more footage of the Wolgast-Nelson fight which is one of the bloodiest and dirtiest fight ever fought. The 2 fighters hated each others guts and agreed that it was a fight to the finish and that there should be no rules.
** Tube clip of Wolgast/Rivers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEJED2DZyCc - Never could figure out the controversy. Rivers knocked down and out cold with Wolgast's forward motion causing him to trip over the prone Rivers like Johnson did against Ketchel. Difference being that Wolgast's legs are spread out and he spears his crotch on River's jutting shoulder, not a legal blow but an unintentional injury. Ref has to pull Wolgast off to get them seperated, and River's team already in the ring.

I have a tape of Wolgast/Nelson, about 15 min starting around the 20th, and then skipping through until the final round. Unfortunately, R.I.P., it's buried in my VCR which ate it. One day I'll unbury it and see if it can be salvaged, but point being there's some good footage out there. What I saw reminded me of a 40 rd Pryor/Arguello all action thriller.
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#8
Old 03-11-2009, 06:02 PM
BattlingNelson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonRingRules View Post
** Tube clip of Wolgast/Rivers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEJED2DZyCc - Never could figure out the controversy. Rivers knocked down and out cold with Wolgast's forward motion causing him to trip over the prone Rivers like Johnson did against Ketchel. Difference being that Wolgast's legs are spread out and he spears his crotch on River's jutting shoulder, not a legal blow but an unintentional injury. Ref has to pull Wolgast off to get them seperated, and River's team already in the ring.

I have a tape of Wolgast/Nelson, about 15 min starting around the 20th, and then skipping through until the final round. Unfortunately, R.I.P., it's buried in my VCR which ate it. One day I'll unbury it and see if it can be salvaged, but point being there's some good footage out there. What I saw reminded me of a 40 rd Pryor/Arguello all action thriller.
Wolgast did appear quite hurt though, but it obviously happened after Rivers was down. I guess the incident got the attention that it did might be beacuse it was a first. I wonder what people would have said if the double knockdown was like this (3:35):



Pretty good that you have seen Wolgast - Nelson. That's one fight I'd like to watch. Perhaps the tv station that aired Moran-Nelson airs that fight at some point.
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Old 03-11-2009, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by TheManchine View Post
Thanks for posting the post-fight statements from both fighters. I had never read them before.

The first knockdown was impressive, especially with the way everyone in the crowd stood up right after Nelson went down, and equally impressive was the fact that Battling Nelson got up and continued getting up.
Here's what referee Selig had to say:

"Nelson was counted out fairly and squarely. If it had been any one else but Battling Nelson, I would have declared Moran the winner after the third knockdown, when the Battler fell again without being hit. I was fully aware of Nelson's ability to take punishment and recover quickly, and I think that all fair
minded people who saw the fight will agree that I gave the battler all the best of it in the count. The fourth time Nelson went down without being struck, which should have disqualified him. I took into consideration the fact that Nelson might have overlooked this rule while dazed and allowed the fight to continue. All this time Moran was begging me to stop the fight so that he
would not have to punish the Battler further.

When he went down the last time I shouted the count in his ear and as the time keeper said "Ten" I said "Out." Nelson was not off the floor at the time.
Nelson claims that I did not say "Ten" which is true, but l substituted the word "out" for "ten" as is usual in such cases."
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Old 03-12-2009, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BattlingNelson View Post
Here's what referee Selig had to say:

"Nelson was counted out fairly and squarely. If it had been any one else but Battling Nelson, I would have declared Moran the winner after the third knockdown, when the Battler fell again without being hit. I was fully aware of Nelson's ability to take punishment and recover quickly, and I think that all fair
minded people who saw the fight will agree that I gave the battler all the best of it in the count. The fourth time Nelson went down without being struck, which should have disqualified him. I took into consideration the fact that Nelson might have overlooked this rule while dazed and allowed the fight to continue. All this time Moran was begging me to stop the fight so that he
would not have to punish the Battler further.

When he went down the last time I shouted the count in his ear and as the time keeper said "Ten" I said "Out." Nelson was not off the floor at the time.
Nelson claims that I did not say "Ten" which is true, but l substituted the word "out" for "ten" as is usual in such cases."
** Thanks for those little gems from fighters and ref about the account of the bout, however looking at the uniformity of the language, I'd say a single sports writer did the interviews and "transliterated" regional pug speak into a standard form for publication in a major daily.

Another thing, I count 6x Nelson was down. First 3 he's being counted over, so those are official, then he's hit and pulled to his gloves twice, both time having the ref rush to them, but he either ignores both, or just the first and starts the count of one with the second brush of gloves and then pulls back since Nelson uprights himself so quickly which is where the last "KD" resulting in the KO call occurs, however there is a splice between his count over the upright Nelson[CUT]Moran jumps several frames and is rushing to congratulate him as the ring is rushed by corners and the public. The ref separates Nelson and makes a big deal with a single final "signal" count of the arm on the tape. Nelson has been up several seconds during all of this, so the KO account provided by the newpaperman/ref doesn't match the tape, and there are at least two more times Nelson was down and not accounted for.

No biggie as we can see who clearly wins, I'm just point out that these published accounts of fights tend to vary and need major context.
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