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#21
Old 01-07-2009, 06:40 PM
-Antonio-
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Lebron still hasn't developed a mid range jumper, and that's not a sure thing that it'll come either. He looks like he lacks touch on his jumper. He just keeps getting bigger and stronger on top of that. If that jumper never comes then he'll never be on Mike's level. Let's not start to compare eras either. Lebron would have been battered every game in the 80's.

That said, if the jumper does come. Whoa...
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#22
Old 01-07-2009, 06:48 PM
horge
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I say, give LeBron time before passing judgement, good or bad.
I also say, stats can fvckin' lie.

Someone who is an effective ballhog against weak comp, but chokes against
good teams, might have better scoring stats than someone who tries to
involve his teammates for the win, and can deliver against even the best
opposition. Stats are a crude representation of performance, and a player's
performance is dictated by coaching and management strategy:

Magic Johnson picked up his scoring (and thus his avg) when he
needed to, as his teammate Kareem-Abdul Jabbar's output (and career)
was winding down. Julius Erving was SPECIFICALLY told when signed by
by Sixers management that his prolific ABA ppg would not do : they
prefered having "3 players averaging 20 to just 1 player averaging 30".

Stats can be misused.
This is why perhaps, if casually, a player's skill is better measured in
team W's. It may be unfair to those who are skilled, but saddled with
subpar teammates, but in a team where specific roles are assigned, the
team's performance as a group is what matters.

There is also the matter of what statistics have difficulty measuring.
Skill is merely the foundation for greatness, for which even W's do not
matter as much.

Big O, Cousey, Hawkins, Baylor, Jordan, Bird, Magic, the Doc, Kareem,
Wilt, West, Russell --don't tell me they excelled only because they
faced weaker opposition than today's. If they'd had today's training
and medical support, equipment, coaching tools and league rules,
I wager they'd dominate just as thoroughly today they did in their time.

h.

Last edited by horge; 01-07-2009 at 06:51 PM..
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#23
Old 01-07-2009, 07:21 PM
oldgringo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Antonio- View Post
Lebron still hasn't developed a mid range jumper, and that's not a sure thing that it'll come either. He looks like he lacks touch on his jumper. He just keeps getting bigger and stronger on top of that. If that jumper never comes then he'll never be on Mike's level. Let's not start to compare eras either. Lebron would have been battered every game in the 80's.

That said, if the jumper does come. Whoa...
Exactly. The game has been tweaked significantly so that skilled players can assert their ability in games. The athletic defensive guys and the tough guys have been put at a disadvantage. Why do you all think that the wave of European players who have come into the league are finesse players? 6'10-7'0 tall players who are out on the wing jacking up 3's. That **** didn't fly back in the day because those guys wouldn't have been able to get those shots off with a defender practically molesting them. Players are being taught the finesse game at the higher levels. Passing, shooting and ball handling...no matter what size. Thank god CBB moved the 3 point line back to establish a little more size for bigs to work inside.

Abolishing the hand check and instituting the defensive 3 sec without guarding has made it a lot harder for defenders to keep wing players, like LeBron and Dwayne Wade, out of the lane. Can you imagine a point man like Steve Nash or even some of todays smaller shooting guards trying to drive on a guy like Gary Payton? Jesus, Nash would have a ton of problems trying to get dribble penetration on those players. Not to say that he wouldn't be able to all together, but it was much tougher trying to get around a man who had a hand on you at all times...not to mention having to stare down a big camped out right in the lane ready to block your shot.

I can't imagine Bron getting away with some of the stuff he gets away with today. Take some moments against the Pistons even. Bron was able to split soft doubles, beating a defender who would have to slide over as a result of the 3sec rule. Take this for instance:



He wouldn't have gotten away with that **** against a guy like Rodman, with Bill Laimbeer sitting there in the lane ready to give him one of these:



You're right about the mid-range jumper though. Bron is already scary good, but if he can stick a 18-20 ft jumper with any regularity he'll be downright unguardable.

Last edited by oldgringo; 01-07-2009 at 07:24 PM..
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#24
Old 01-07-2009, 08:30 PM
AntonTheMeh
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Originally Posted by kswizzy99 View Post
do you even know what killer instinct is? its the ability to break down the other team and out will them to a win. refusing to lose no matter what. Lebron, Kobe, Jordan, Isiah Thomas, Bird, Magic, Pierce all have it. guys like Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Carmelo, Redd do not have it.
no i don't.which is why i mentioned it.by killer instinct i mean the game is tied, 6 seconds to go, and __________ has the ball in their hands.how many of those did mike hit?lebron has had his chances and hasn't proved that he has it yet.
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#25
Old 01-07-2009, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by -***8730;ictory- View Post
no i don't.which is why i mentioned it.by killer instinct i mean the game is tied, 6 seconds to go, and __________ has the ball in their hands.how many of those did mike hit?lebron has had his chances and hasn't proved that he has it yet.
that's not killer instinct, thats called clutch. there is a difference. Horry, Kerr, billups are clutch but they don't have killer instinct.

this is an example of killer instinct and clutch. cavs down by 10 and Lebron's teamates aren't hitting their shots so he takes over the game and scores 29 of the cavs last 30 pts against the best defense in the NBA.

Last edited by -Swizzy-; 01-07-2009 at 10:32 PM..
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#26
Old 01-07-2009, 10:31 PM
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hand checking, hard fouls and toughness are being blown out of proportion. the lack of athleticism and defensive knowledge back in the day is incredible. honestly, for anyone who has NBAtv and watches all the classic games, you will know what I am talking about. For everyone else, I am just pissing in the wind with my posts. Your view of 80's NBA is so far off that its mind boggling. honestly, present day NCAA elite teams can take on alot of the teams in the 80's. the florida gators that won 2 years ago could beat most of the 80's teams(not including lakers, celtics and pistons of course). The only proof I could give you is just to watch the games for yourself.
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#27
Old 01-07-2009, 10:39 PM
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Lebanon is wel better than Jordan. Jordan doesn't have cedar trees!
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#28
Old 01-07-2009, 11:06 PM
oldgringo
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Defensive principles haven't evolved much from the late 80's/early 90's to now. Lets not make this seem like Jordan, Magic, Pippen and the like were running around in black and white, shooting free throws underhand.

Defense is a matter of position, rotation and awareness. 5 of the 10 or so greatest defenders of all-time were at their peak in the 80's and 90's. Scottie Pippen, Dennis Johnson, Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon and Dennis Rodman all possessed great awareness and they were always in the correct spots on the floor to make a defensive stop.

The most significant changes in defense in the NBA have been rule changes, not changes in scheme or some higher collective basketball IQ. Allowing players to hand check and allowing power positions to sag in the lane makes it much harder to attack the basket. That's just a fact.
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#29
Old 01-07-2009, 11:22 PM
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In other news, what the **** is up with Boston? They just keep losing.
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#30
Old 01-07-2009, 11:33 PM
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now in the nba you look at somebody and you get call a foul or a technical foul.

Last edited by oc9979; 01-07-2009 at 11:33 PM.. Reason: misspell
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