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View Poll Results: Do you support Socialism?
Yes 36 55.38%
No 29 44.62%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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#41
Old 10-25-2008, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !! Shawn View Post
Simple question, simple answers. Yes, No; include a reason.
I don't! I like the way capitalist markets allow - given the right strategy and maybe some luck - the average joe to live the life he wants to live. I understand how some cultures based less on greed would favor a "for the good of the whole" approach to their economy. But I'm with you each person should have some control of there ultimate fate.
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#42
Old 10-25-2008, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynBomber View Post
But this is not really socialism. I mean, did you study sociology yet? I know it is a national college requirement, not so sure about high schools though.
But back to the topic, the only real difference(which lies at the basis) between socialism and capitalism is a right to property, or actually the lack of it, which I do not support.
Everything you listed might be called logical derivatives of socialism, but they are not even close to the actual socialism.
As it been shown by the history, extremes of any kind are deadly and usually do not survive the test of times.
Thus I am all for a strong enough government that implements some socialistic concepts(since they are quite useful), however capitalism(although somewhat controlled as well) should be the base of the political system.
This is why I asked for a simple yes or no answer. I didn't want people trying to "defend" their ideas as not socialist.

Income redistribution IS a socialist idea. Attempting to separate individual ideas and isolate them from their socialist roots in an attempt to make them more appealing is dishonest. That sort of dishonestly is what I am attempting to avoid with this thread.

What your are doing is no different that trying to argue that a steering wheel is not an automotive part because an automobile is comprised of more than just a steering wheel.
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#43
Old 10-25-2008, 05:48 PM
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I favour a mixed system, like here in Europe. We have a large state sector proving many of the fundamentals of life. Yet we have a substantial free market, allowing massive personal wealth as well as ensuring the basics for all.

This is the best system in the world.
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#44
Old 10-25-2008, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !! Shawn View Post
This is why I asked for a simple yes or no answer. I didn't want people trying to "defend" their ideas as not socialist.

Income redistribution IS a socialist idea. Attempting to separate individual ideas and isolate them from their socialist roots in an attempt to make them more appealing is dishonest. That sort of dishonestly is what I am attempting to avoid with this thread.

What your are doing is no different that trying to argue that a steering wheel is not an automotive part because an automobile is comprised of more than just a steering wheel.
Simple answers are for simple people.
When you actually hit the real life, you will undestand it.
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#45
Old 10-25-2008, 07:04 PM
!! Shawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynBomber View Post
Simple answers are for simple people.
When you actually hit the real life, you will undestand it.
Your ad hominem attacks are not welcome in this thread. If you wish to explain why you support socialist ideas, by all means do so, but personal attacks are not welcome.
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#46
Old 10-25-2008, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynBomber View Post
Simple answers are for simple people.
When you actually hit the real life, you will undestand it.
Shawn your view is so biased and covered in propaganda it is ridiculous. My dad is from the states, he was in a good upper-middle class family who could afford anything. Yet he says Australia's system ****s all over it?

I am able to study full time without working by getting centrelink payments off the government which allow me not to stress and focus on doing my degree. Oh and the total cost of my degree is about $30 k australian (4 years), which I will pay back slowly to the government when I start earning enough money. How much will your degree cost you?

Sure I may get taxed more, but who cares? that money will go towards people who actually need it. Get your ****ing head out of your ass and realise not everyone in your country can afford the healthcare which your family can afford. Think of those people who have to live off that ****ty "minimum" wage which is an absolute joke. This "socialism" helps over ride the greed which is so prevalent in your society. No one wants to help each other out, it's just competition, competition and more competition. DOn't get me wrong thats fine in the market place, but are people's lives and wellbeing a market? I don't think so.

Countries like Australia and Canada are not perfect, but then again we know if our lives do not go perfectly we will have the government there to support us. What would happen to your standard of living if you became a single parent at lets say 19 with a new born? Who would support you if your family had no money/disowned you?

There are so many positives that socialism can bring to the US, but you are so blinded by selfishness and greed that it will never happen. You will see how bad your system works in the coming years as your economy continues to crash and burn.
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#47
Old 10-25-2008, 07:59 PM
!! Shawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
Shawn your view is so biased and covered in propaganda it is ridiculous. My dad is from the states, he was in a good upper-middle class family who could afford anything. Yet he says Australia's system ****s all over it?

I am able to study full time without working by getting centrelink payments off the government which allow me not to stress and focus on doing my degree. Oh and the total cost of my degree is about $30 k australian (4 years), which I will pay back slowly to the government when I start earning enough money. How much will your degree cost you?

Sure I may get taxed more, but who cares? that money will go towards people who actually need it. Get your ****ing head out of your ass and realise not everyone in your country can afford the healthcare which your family can afford. Think of those people who have to live off that ****ty "minimum" wage which is an absolute joke. This "socialism" helps over ride the greed which is so prevalent in your society. No one wants to help each other out, it's just competition, competition and more competition. DOn't get me wrong thats fine in the market place, but are people's lives and wellbeing a market? I don't think so.

Countries like Australia and Canada are not perfect, but then again we know if our lives do not go perfectly we will have the government there to support us. What would happen to your standard of living if you became a single parent at lets say 19 with a new born? Who would support you if your family had no money/disowned you?

There are so many positives that socialism can bring to the US, but you are so blinded by selfishness and greed that it will never happen. You will see how bad your system works in the coming years as your economy continues to crash and burn.
Apparently you do not understand what an ad hominem argument entails, so you are forgiven.

Your post demonstrates some of the key differences in ideology between us, and why socialism is probably the system that would work best for you.

You lack a sense of personal responsibility. Here are the statements you made that support my assertion:

Quote:
Sure I may get taxed more, but who cares? that money will go towards people who actually need it.
Quote:
... if our lives do not go perfectly we will have the government there to support us.
Why this demonstrates a lack of sense of personal responsibility:

1) You are either uncomfortable or unwilling to make decisions on your own as too who needs help and who doesn't, thus, you are more comfortable with the government making that decision for you.

2) You expect the government to take care of people in need. This demonstrates that you are either unwilling, or do not feel a responsibility to help those in need.

Personally, if I have problems, I would much prefer to fall back on my friends and family rather than the government. Conversely, I feel the personal responsibility required to help friends and family in need.

I am assuming you do not perform volunteer work, and do not donate money to charitable organizations of your choosing.

I do. Giving people a choice of who to help is what personal freedom is all about. I believe in the kindness and generosity of people, obviously you do not. Charitable organizations have improved more peoples lives than any government could ever hope too.

That is the difference between us. You believe that people are selfish and greedy. I believe that people are generous and giving.

You want the government to take peoples money and do good for them. I want people to be able to gain the personal satisfaction that comes with using their own time and money to help those less fortunate than themselves.
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#48
Old 10-25-2008, 09:00 PM
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#49
Old 10-25-2008, 10:45 PM
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No: It is institutionalized coercion.
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#50
Old 10-25-2008, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BMWM3P View Post
You must be joking right. Name some of the great schools that Canada has produced.
you beat me I was fixing to say the same thing. I couldn't name a single school or university in Canada.
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