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View Poll Results: Do you support Socialism?
Yes 36 55.38%
No 29 44.62%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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#111
Old 10-27-2008, 07:15 PM
Jim Jeffries
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Originally Posted by P4P Opinion View Post
Prove it. I won't take a few pieces of anecdotal evidence by the way. I want cold, hard facts. It seems to me that you've bought the idea of American dream working without question. As ever though, I will condede at the drop of a hat if you can prove it to me. I doubt you can though, not that I am necessarily saying it isn't true. I just doubt it's possible to prove.
Carlos Slim Helu, from Mexico, is the third richest man in the world at 30 billion dollars in net wealth. The GDP per capita in Mexico is under 10K.

The GDP per capita in the US is almost 5 times Mexico's, yet our richest person has less than twice Helu's net wealth.

In Zimbabwe, where the GDP per capita is a measly 188 bucks, and over 99% of the population are starving, do you really believe that Robert Mugabe and his group of thugs aren't living like kings?

Quote:
Long-term planning by a right winger coming into play again I see...which I am of the opinion is the major problem with the right. Everything is about the now with you guys, failing to recognise longer term solutions, bourne out of a paranoia towards your fellow men.
In case you haven't realized it, we're in a pretty bad situation here, energy wise, and need to do something about it now. Obviously we need to look toward the future and start working toward weaning ourself off of fossil fuels. But in the 30+ years it will take to do that, we need to address some immediate concerns. Our biggest weakness right now is our thirst for oil, we can sustain ourselves quite fine with every other neccessary commodity.


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Your lack of perspective is startling. I can't believe that so many citizens of a Republic could be so loyal to a virtual monarchy like the rich. The majority of rich people in America were born into privilege, all the while the majority of people born into poor or poorer families don't have a chance from the start, as a result of the schools they have to go to, the vast financial difficulty they have in regards to getting a college education and the consequent result of social abnormality towards someone from a poorer community even attempting to go to college.
Loyal to a system that made us the most powerful nation on earth, imagine that. A system that allows anyone to graduate from college, through grants and student loans. A system that even during a downturn has an unemployment rate of only 6%. Anyone who wants to can go to college in this country, but believe it or not, not everyone wants to. And guess what? Someone actually has to clean out toilets, dig ditches, sweep and mop floors, etc.

Quote:
This all sounds a little like bitterness to me. Were you born into a middle class family but didn't take advantage of your opportunities? Or maybe you were born into a poorer family and didn't have the opportunities! Why the Hell do you lean to the right if this is the case?!
How am I bitter? Because I don't like someone automatically assuming someone is stupid or uneducated just because they don't believe in Socialism? Why are you assuming that I didn't take advantage of given opportunities? Have I led you to believe that I'm uneducated, or haven't reached the stature that I desired in life?

Last edited by Jim Jeffries; 10-27-2008 at 07:18 PM..
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#112
Old 10-27-2008, 07:19 PM
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I do to a point but I answered no because I don't fully support it. BTW Obama is NOT a Solcialist.
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#113
Old 10-27-2008, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Jeffries View Post
Carlos Slim Helu, from Mexico, is the third richest man in the world at 30 billion dollars in net wealth. The GDP per capita in Mexico is under 10K.

The GDP per capita in the US is almost 5 times Mexico's, yet our richest person has less than twice Helu's net wealth.
I said I didn't want anecdotal evidence. Mr Helu could simply be a remarkable individual and even if the chances of him succeeding are better in the US than in Mexico, it doesn't prove your claim that the US offers the best wealth opportunities in the World.


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Originally Posted by Jim Jeffries View Post
In case you haven't realized it, we're in a pretty bad situation here, energy wise, and need to do something about it now. Obviously we need to look toward the future and start working toward weaning ourself off of fossil fuels. But in the 30+ years it will take to do that, we need to address some immediate concerns. Our biggest weakness right now is our thirst for oil, we can sustain ourselves quite fine with every other neccessary commodity.
Fair point, but I still think that investing a huge amount of money drilling in more areas is only going to discourage progress. We need to bring down the price of the oil we are currently drilling by fixing the economy and invest into sustainable energy. We have to start at some point.

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Originally Posted by Jim Jeffries View Post
Loyal to a system that made us the most powerful nation on earth, imagine that. A system that allows anyone to graduate from college, through grants and student loans. A system that even during a downturn has an unemployment rate of only 6%. Anyone who wants to can go to college in this country, but believe it or not, not everyone wants to. And guess what? Someone actually has to clean out toilets, dig ditches, sweep and mop floors, etc.
That power matters only to those who are reaping the rewards as a result. As for student loans, I'd suggest you check out the systems being run in Canada and Scotland for a system where it is feasible for everybody to go to college. I'll take your word for the unemployment rate for now, as I am in no mood to deeply research at the moment, and it sounds about right, but I will counter with this; unemployment may be low, but the wages the people at the bottom are making are also extremely low. Society should in my opinion guarantee a minimum wage which is reasonable. Someone indeed has to clean the toilets, but why can't it be the lazy rather than the people who didn't have a chance?

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Originally Posted by Jim Jeffries View Post
How am I bitter? Because I don't like someone automatically assuming someone is stupid or uneducated just because they don't believe in Socialism? Why are you assuming that I didn't take advantage of given opportunities? Have I led you to believe that I'm uneducated, or haven't reached the stature that I desired in life?
I was merely speculating on why you consider anyone who likes Socialism to be elitist. I have met people who match my speculations, perhaps you don't and if I've offended you, I apologise.
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#114
Old 10-27-2008, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by !! Shawn View Post
No.

I believe that people have a basic right to their own prosperity.
Easy to say when you live in the Burbs and have it good! this is a typical excuse given by the bourgeosie to exploit the proletariat. Without socialism millions more people will die and live in poverty (take away them welfare checks! see the hooversville comeback). What do you think of the Fire Service (at one point this depended on independent brigades fighting for insurance payouts in USA) Police, SCHOOLS and Armed Forces? They too are examples of socialism and can also be privatised. on your upper middle class principle what do you haev to say to that?

egalitarianism is not about giving out a free lunch to everyone so they don't have to earn anything in life. it is about helping out your fellow man to the BASIC NEEDS. yes you are right, everyone has a basic right to their own prosperity, but that does not mean deprive them of a basic right to basic living standards such as decent healthcare, education, job seekers allowance and housing.
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#115
Old 10-27-2008, 07:40 PM
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Easy to say when you live in the Burbs and have it good! this is a typical excuse given by the bourgeosie to exploit the proletariat. Without socialism millions more people will die and live in poverty (take away them welfare checks! see the hooversville comeback). What do you think of the Fire Service (at one point this depended on independent brigades fighting for insurance payouts in USA) Police, SCHOOLS and Armed Forces? They too are examples of socialism and can also be privatised. on your upper middle class principle what do you haev to say to that?

egalitarianism is not about giving out a free lunch to everyone so they don't have to earn anything in life. it is about helping out your fellow man to the BASIC NEEDS. yes you are right, everyone has a basic right to their own prosperity, but that does not mean deprive them of a basic right to basic living standards such as decent healthcare, education, job seekers allowance and housing.
Couldn't agree more. No one wants communism (even wannabe communists if they got down to the real thing), but the government should provide basic rights like healthcare and the priority should always be to make society fairer, without infringing civil liberties. It can be done and it should be done.
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#116
Old 10-27-2008, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RAESAAD View Post
I do to a point but I answered no because I don't fully support it. BTW Obama is NOT a Solcialist.
I don't think Shawn was implying that, but doesn't it seem strange that everyone that admits to supporting socialism is also an Obama supporter?

Let me ask you a question that Joe Biden felt was beneath him and worth banning an intire station from further interviews: What is the difference between Karl Marx's "From each according to their abilities to each according to their needs" and Obama's desire to redistribute the wealth in this country?

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#117
Old 10-27-2008, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by P4P Opinion View Post
I said I didn't want anecdotal evidence. Mr Helu could simply be a remarkable individual and even if the chances of him succeeding are better in the US than in Mexico, it doesn't prove your claim that the US offers the best wealth opportunities in the World.




.
Carlos Slim would not be able to acquire wealth like this in the U.S. because we have Anti-Trust laws that prevent monopolies. Carlos Slim is the richest man(or close to it) in the world because he controls the entire telecommunications infrastructure in Mexico among other things.
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#118
Old 10-27-2008, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by P4P Opinion View Post
Couldn't agree more. No one wants communism (even wannabe communists if they got down to the real thing), but the government should provide basic rights like healthcare and the priority should always be to make society fairer, without infringing civil liberties. It can be done and it should be done.
Believe it or not, poor people in this country already have access to healthcare, it's called medicare. This 46 million uninsured number that Obama likes to throw around includes about 12 million illegals (not really sure why they should have a right to free health care,) and a lot of people my age that don't qualify for free health care, but don't feel like paying for health insurance, because they never get sick.

And if your family makes below a certain amount, you are automatically elligible for grants and loans that will allow you to attend a state university with enough money to pay for tuition, books, room and board, etc. And as long as you keep your grades up, this will continue, even through grad school.
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#119
Old 10-27-2008, 07:51 PM
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Couldn't agree more. No one wants communism (even wannabe communists if they got down to the real thing), but the government should provide basic rights like healthcare and the priority should always be to make society fairer, without infringing civil liberties. It can be done and it should be done.
It's not the government's job to "litigate" and make things "fair". That's a bunch of BS. The governments job is to provide protection in the form of fire, police, and military. Maybe a few small things after that. You are British so this concept of government solving problems is probably natural to you.
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#120
Old 10-27-2008, 08:26 PM
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as an ideal, yes, but as a pratice is seems to always be distorted.
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