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#51
Old 08-30-2007, 06:27 PM
them_apples
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Tua had a good chin, but it wasn't Ali's or Holmes'.
how do you know? nobody ever hurt him! automatically assuming he didn't have a chin like the old greats is just stupid.
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#52
Old 08-30-2007, 06:35 PM
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Tua has a harder chin than Holmes and Ali put together. Don't you get it? It's unnatural. Theres nothing you can do to that fattie but UD him.
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#53
Old 08-30-2007, 06:51 PM
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His brain doesn't rattle, probably a more compact skull and bone structure.
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#54
Old 08-30-2007, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Brassangel View Post
Shavers lost some of those fights, but he gave them absolute hell before he did. Tua had a good chin, but it wasn't Ali's or Holmes'. Shavers knocked Holmes down multiple times and had Ali out on his feet twice. Tua would never lay a glove on Ali, probably not Holmes either. It would be like his first fight with Rahman, where he was dominated the entire time, only there would be no "miracle punch after the bell." Whether or not Shavers would beat Tua isn't the issue, because a top ten list isn't determined by head-to-head matchups, or else guys like Foreman, Tyson, etc., would always rank higher.
** Nobody would ever mention the possibility of Tua or Shavers in a top 10 list save their inclusion in their era's top 10 contenders list.

Tua has a much better chin than Holmes or Ali. Never been dropped or KOed or even staggered. Guaranteed Tua would KO Holmes and the version of Ali that Shavers fought. Tua beat Ike in spite of the decision. He hasn't always been in the best shape for fights, but when trained he's damn near unstoppable. He's fought the who's who of his era, Rahman, Lewis. Ike, Ruiz, Oquendo, Byrd, Maskaev, and would've faced Tyson, Bowe, and Holy but they don't want any part of this crusher.

Look, I love Shavers, but the guy took up boxing late and had major flaws. Not a fair comparison to Tua.
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#55
Old 08-30-2007, 11:43 PM
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You're right London, he (Shavers) did take it up late in life, but that should speak more for his natural ability (and strength) than against it. To still be able to compete when not even starting until most guys zenith is pretty amazing.

As to the chins, Tua was rock-solid. He never got hit by someone who hits as hard as Foreman, or Shavers, or Lyle, or Cooney, or even Frazier at his best, however, so the comparison is rather relative. Tua was also lazy and often out of shape, but he was a wrecking machine against one of the softest heavyweight divisions in history.

Of the "who's who" that you listed who Tua faced, they have a combined KO percentage of 61.9%; the majority of that coming from Lewis and Ike. I would hardly say that they really "tested" Tua's chin.

Of the "who's who" that Ali faced, selecting 6 as well, including Frazier, Liston, Foreman, Norton, Patterson, and Holmes (even though Ali's medicine was killing him, and he was waaaaaay beyond his best (and already suffering mildly from Parkinson's) we'll include Holmes), they had a combined KO percentage of 69.2%. Keep in mind, Holmes and Foreman went on to have extended careers as old men that didn't involve nearly as many KO's. Even so, there's far more KO power in this bunch, far more talent, and none of them forced Ali to the count. He was a slender, lengthy man, as opposed to Tua's stocky, no-neck frame, and he stood up to far more punishment than Tua. I didn't even include Shavers in this list.

Of the "who's who" that Holmes face, the 6 pack includes Ali, Shavers, Spinks (Michael), Tyson, Holyfield, Norton, and they had a combined KO percentage of 66%. Again, a group with far more talent and KO capability than that of the lot Tua ever faced.

The point is, the people who Holmes and Ali faced not only hit harder, but were far more formidable opponents, many of whom are hall-of-fame champions (or will be). Lennox Lewis is pretty much it for Tua, and he lost that fight...convincingly. In fact, Lewis said, "I watched tape on him and he doesn't throw a right hand. And I wasn't worried about his right hand only his left hook. In the first round I felt his left hook and I realized, boy, what are they talking about? That's not a power left hook. I didn't think there was too much power. I mean, he executes it well, but that's the only punch he has."

If Tua couldn't hurt the normally questionably-jawed Lewis, or take out Byrd, who said of Tua, "I got into the ropes this time, I was just proving that I can stay in there with the big guys. I can see punches real good. He didn't hurt me on the ropes." ( then he wouldn't touch Holmes or Ali.
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#56
Old 08-30-2007, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
As to the chins, Tua was rock-solid. He never got hit by someone who hits as hard as Foreman, or Shavers, or Lyle, or Cooney,
are you saying that a 250 lbs lewis doesn't hit as hard as those mentioned?
While those were very hard hitters I think people are to biased towards older fighters of their era. Tua's neck is 19 inches, he weighs 245 lbs and is only 5'9-5'10 the guy is so solid I hardly think a 218 lb foreman would be able to hit sooo much harder than Lewis that it would have knocked him out. Lewis didn't even phase Tua. On top of that , all those fighters you mentioned were slow as mud that even Tua would look fast around them. Anyone Tua could reach usually went down like a pile of bricks-- his height/reach was his shortcoming however.
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#57
Old 08-31-2007, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by them_apples View Post
are you saying that a 250 lbs lewis doesn't hit as hard as those mentioned?
While those were very hard hitters I think people are to biased towards older fighters of their era. Tua's neck is 19 inches, he weighs 245 lbs and is only 5'9-5'10 the guy is so solid I hardly think a 218 lb foreman would be able to hit sooo much harder than Lewis that it would have knocked him out. Lewis didn't even phase Tua. On top of that , all those fighters you mentioned were slow as mud that even Tua would look fast around them. Anyone Tua could reach usually went down like a pile of bricks-- his height/reach was his shortcoming however.
You can't equate size with power: They are two different things. Mike Tyson at his best fought at 217 and he punched MUCH harder than his MUCH bigger opponents. Conversly, Mike White was HUGE but couldn't hit a lick. Physiology, ie how a body is contructed, has more to do with punching power than something as simplistic as weight. Why are so many tall scrawny guys (Hearns for example) devestating punchers? It has to do with how their body is put together overall. Tua has one punch power, but not because he weighs 245. He'd have that same bone-breaking power if he weighed 225.

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#58
Old 08-31-2007, 08:52 AM
Yaman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poet682006 View Post
You can't equate size with power: They are two different things. Mike Tyson at his best fought at 217 and he punched MUCH harder than his MUCH bigger opponents. Conversly, Mike White was HUGE but couldn't hit a lick. Physiology, ie how a body is contructed, has more to do with punching power than something as simplistic as weight. Why are so many tall scrawny guys (Hearns for example) devestating punchers? It has to do with how their body is put together overall. Tua has one punch power, but not because he weighs 245. He'd have that same bone-breaking power if he weighed 225.

Poet
Correct, in his early days he weighed 225 and I don't see much of a diffirence. He is just build for it.
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#59
Old 08-31-2007, 10:26 AM
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Weight doesn't matter all that much, if you can get between 200-210 at least. Frazier and Holyfield both fought many a fight in that range and were damn good at it, too.
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#60
Old 08-31-2007, 10:32 AM
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Joe Louis weighed 200 in his prime and Rocky Marciano weighed 185: Both hit like trucks. George Foreman weighed 220 in his prime and I'd wager he hit harder than just about everybody not named Earnie Shavers.

PS. Bob Satterfield was a Light-Heavy who had one punch power when fighting Heavyweights; unfortunately for him his chin was so bad he made many of his opponents look like THEY had one punch power too.

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