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#511
Old 10-25-2007, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
Out of curiousness where do you rate Holyfield and Tyson?
well if i reorganise my list i would put lennox down a bit maybe to 9th/10th and i would put tyson below that due to the fact that he did suffer 2 defeats from the lion. as for holyfield im not so sure to be honest mate, the man is still lacing 'em up and if he pulls off a big win soon or even 2 i would consider him in my top 10. The epic trilogy he had with riddick bowe is something i would take into consideration as well because they were 3 great fights. IMO holyfield was more finess than tyson who had shear KO power. i would place holyfield over tyson, but only just. What about you mate? who would you pick to be the better of the 2? BTW il be back soon im just going to watch to tottenham match cheers
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#512
Old 10-25-2007, 04:47 PM
Hawk O'Connor
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well if i reorganise my list i would put lennox down a bit maybe to 9th/10th and i would put tyson below that due to the fact that he did suffer 2 defeats from the lion. as for holyfield im not so sure to be honest mate, the man is still lacing 'em up and if he pulls off a big win soon or even 2 i would consider him in my top 10. The epic trilogy he had with riddick bowe is something i would take into consideration as well because they were 3 great fights. IMO holyfield was more finess than tyson who had shear KO power. i would place holyfield over tyson, but only just. What about you mate? who would you pick to be the better of the 2? BTW il be back soon im just going to watch to tottenham match cheers
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Originally Posted by Hawkins
1. Joe Louis - 25 title defenses and the most dominant reign in heavyweight history. Plus you add in the social weight his reign carried and I don't see how anyone else could be considered for the top spot.

2. Muhammad Ali - First ever 3-time champ. Fought and defeated the toughest competition of any era. Unreal speed and skills at his peak. Plus his contributions to the social concious are almost unmatched.

3. Jack Johnson - Not a real big puncher but one of the first heavyweights to rely on boxing skill instead of bone crushing power and knockouts. He came along about 40 years before Jackie Robinson. Can you imagine the pressure of being the most hated man in America? Having the government re-write laws and enforce bygone laws in order to strip you of your title? Unreal. And aside from all of this he was able to keep competing at a high level.

4. Jack Dempsey - The first huge heavyweight draw. Relentless, tenacious and exciting. Was even more popular than Babe Ruth in his heyday. Truly brought the heavyweight championship to a new level.

5. Larry Holmes - The forgotten champion. Because he came along in the wake of Ali he is usually swept aside by most casual observers of the sport. Had the best jab, and some of the greatest boxing skills, in heavyweight history and fought everyone available. Truly underrated by most.

6. George Foreman - Greatest power puncher in the divisions history. Annihilated 2 greats of the game in Norton and Frazier. Limited overall boxing skills, but a true destroyer. Came back in the 90's. Used the power from the 1970's with a new styled mentality and regained a portion of the title.

7. Joe Frazier - Never a more determined or tougher fighter to lace up the gloves. When you faced Smokin' Joe you had better be prepared to go to war. Has a resume almost comparable to Ali. Faced anyone put in front of him. You'll not find a tougher more determined fighter in heavyweight history.

8. Rocky Marciano - Utterly relentless. Below grade boxing skills but made it up with an utterly-bottomless will to win and an unrelenting attacking. His Suzie Q right hand is one of the most devestating ever in the division. Oh yea, that little thing of retiring undefeated helps too.

9. Evander Holyfield - An undersized heavyweight competing with the behemoths of the 90's. Tenacious and fearless. Great boxing skill but loved to brawl. Former undisputed champ and 3 time holder of a portion of the title. A true throwback fighter in the modern era.

10. Ezzard Charles - The most overlooked and underrated heavyweight of them all. A legendary light heavy who moved up and won the heavyweight crown. A superb and slick fighter. Adapted a cautious style after killing a man in the ring but still was very effective. Defending his title 8 times.
Here is my list, just like everyone elses others will have issues with my placement of certain people and usually I understand why. As for Tyson he doesn't make my top ten. He and Lennox usually hover around the 11-14 range with Lennox always taking the slot above Tyson.

As for Holyfield I placed him and Ezzard in the lower echelon of the top 10. They both came up from lower weightclasses to compete and win on boxing's biggest stage.
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#513
Old 10-25-2007, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
Here is my list, just like everyone elses others will have issues with my placement of certain people and usually I understand why. As for Tyson he doesn't make my top ten. He and Lennox usually hover around the 11-14 range with Lennox always taking the slot above Tyson.

As for Holyfield I placed him and Ezzard in the lower echelon of the top 10. They both came up from lower weightclasses to compete and win on boxing's biggest stage.
I never though about ezzard mate. good pick. he made some good fights against marciano and especially his bouts with jersey joe. There are so many brilliant heavyweights, but IMO the best come from the far past eras. I find it hard to take an interest in today's heavys, which is a shame because the past fights/brawls of the HW devision have been some of the most enthralling.
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#514
Old 10-25-2007, 05:32 PM
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il be sure to check it out mate. And you're a yid?? i am to mate!! bloody shame the way we've been performing back in britain though i mean 3-1 to newcastle! Jol needs to get his act together.
Yid through and through mate. Bad news lost 1-2 and Maarten Jol has resigned apparently Juande Ramos of Sevilla could be on his way as our new manager.

Sorry enough of the football, I have a Tottenham thread in the limey lounge I'll speak to you about it there.
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#515
Old 10-25-2007, 06:27 PM
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We all have differing opinions no ones right or wrong but that's what's great discussing it and why.

I totally respect poet and hawkins and quite a few others that have posted here yet we have different opinions.

I personally have to have Lennox Lewis right up near the top while many disagree. But if you're taking accomplishments into account then I find it hard not to rank him high.

Apart from the 70's he fought in the strongest era ever and he reigned as at least one belt holder and undisputed champ for nearly 10 years. 3 time champ, he beat the 2 other greats of his time, he beat every opponent he ever faced avenging his 2 defeats which is the mark of a great champion. He made 14 succesful defenses with only Louis,Ali and Holmes making more. He beat everyone there was to beat with only the exception of Bowe and Moorer who both avoided him. Lewis stopped Bowe in 2rnds in the Olympic final and I think he would have beaten him again and Moorer wouldn't have took his punches. He was given the run around throughout his career but fought through all the boxing politics and still unified the titles, he retired as champion. If that isn't enough then I don't know what is. That's why I have him above the like of Tyson,Holyfield,Frazier,Dempsey,Foreman and Marciano as there accomplishments just don't match up.
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#516
Old 10-25-2007, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by hurricane72 View Post
We all have differing opinions no ones right or wrong but that's what's great discussing it and why.

I totally respect poet and hawkins and quite a few others that have posted here yet we have different opinions.

I personally have to have Lennox Lewis right up near the top while many disagree. But if you're taking accomplishments into account then I find it hard not to rank him high.

Apart from the 70's he fought in the strongest era ever and he reigned as at least one belt holder and undisputed champ for nearly 10 years. 3 time champ, he beat the 2 other greats of his time, he beat every opponent he ever faced avenging his 2 defeats which is the mark of a great champion. He made 14 succesful defenses with only Louis,Ali and Holmes making more. He beat everyone there was to beat with only the exception of Bowe and Moorer who both avoided him. Lewis stopped Bowe in 2rnds in the Olympic final and I think he would have beaten him again and Moorer wouldn't have took his punches. He was given the run around throughout his career but fought through all the boxing politics and still unified the titles, he retired as champion. If that isn't enough then I don't know what is. That's why I have him above the like of Tyson,Holyfield,Frazier,Dempsey,Foreman and Marciano as there accomplishments just don't match up.


I'll be the first to say I respect Lennox Lewis. I actually liked watching him fight. However to say he fought in the best class of heavyweights since the 70's is a stretch IMO. The best fighter he fought was a 36 year old, washed up Evander Holyfield and those were some of the most boring fights I have ever seen. Like Evander said, "Every time I got in close he hugged me tighter than my wife." Because of the fact Lennox was always cautious, pawing with his jab and overly defensive most people will never give him the respect of a top-ten placement.

The gripes I have against Lennox are as follows :

1. He had all the talent in the world, but half the time he elected to eek out boring decision wins against mediocre talent. In process made himself look mediocre alot of the time.

2. He got utterly dismantled by two guys who didn't belong in the same ring with a guy as talented as he was. True he avenged his losses (If you can call the second McCall fight a fight) but the point is he shouldn't have had to fight them a second time.

3. He didn't give Klitschko a rematch. The one guy who gave him a decent enough fight lost because of a cut and Lennox wouldn't grant him a rematch. Instead Lennox retires. Lennox should have granted Klitchsko a rematch and went out on a dominant note if he actually believed he was better than Vitali. Instead we got a sloppy slugfest, that Vitali was winning, with a less than clarifying ending. I could see the point in not granting a rematch if Lennox had dominated from the opening bell and then it was stopped for cuts. And its hard to believe he retired on such a whimper and not a dominant performance.

4. He's British/Canadian














(Just kidding with #4 )



Anyway, there are 3 of the big issues I have with Lennox and placing him in my top 10.
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#517
Old 10-25-2007, 07:03 PM
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I dnt think Lewis achieved much more than Other greats did. I mean, He beat two greats of his era..but both tyson was definatley over the hill and Evander wasnt at his best..but IMO lewis would still have beaten Him. As for dominance of his era, i dont see them same amount of dominance as Tyson, Holmes, Louis, even Liston..were people were soo fearfull of facing him. He did beat every1 he faced, but he also lost twice to poor opponents i mean alot of greats have lost to lesser opponents but twice bth within is prime is a major concern. Im not saying he isnt great and he is 6th on my new list but was only 10th on my old
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#518
Old 10-25-2007, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by hurricane72 View Post
We all have differing opinions no ones right or wrong but that's what's great discussing it and why.

I totally respect poet and hawkins and quite a few others that have posted here yet we have different opinions.

I personally have to have Lennox Lewis right up near the top while many disagree. But if you're taking accomplishments into account then I find it hard not to rank him high.

Apart from the 70's he fought in the strongest era ever and he reigned as at least one belt holder and undisputed champ for nearly 10 years. 3 time champ, he beat the 2 other greats of his time, he beat every opponent he ever faced avenging his 2 defeats which is the mark of a great champion. He made 14 succesful defenses with only Louis,Ali and Holmes making more. He beat everyone there was to beat with only the exception of Bowe and Moorer who both avoided him. Lewis stopped Bowe in 2rnds in the Olympic final and I think he would have beaten him again and Moorer wouldn't have took his punches. He was given the run around throughout his career but fought through all the boxing politics and still unified the titles, he retired as champion. If that isn't enough then I don't know what is. That's why I have him above the like of Tyson,Holyfield,Frazier,Dempsey,Foreman and Marciano as there accomplishments just don't match up.
yoour right mate, i stated earlier who lennox fought and his accomplishments. The reasons i put him further down though are becuase in a way if i put lennox against past heavyweightsim not sure of who would win and likewise with past champions. i put him down the scale because i think the men before him fought a totally different style of boxer back then and IMO they were better fighters/boxers for different reasons such as they're attitude towards boxing and their training. its much changed since then.
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#519
Old 10-25-2007, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
I'll be the first to say I respect Lennox Lewis. I actually liked watching him fight. However to say he fought in the best class of heavyweights since the 70's is a stretch IMO. The best fighter he fought was a 36 year old, washed up Evander Holyfield and those were some of the most boring fights I have ever seen. Like Evander said, "Every time I got in close he hugged me tighter than my wife." Because of the fact Lennox was always cautious, pawing with his jab and overly defensive most people will never give him the respect of a top-ten placement.

The gripes I have against Lennox are as follows :

1. He had all the talent in the world, but half the time he elected to eek out boring decision wins against mediocre talent. In process made himself look mediocre alot of the time.

2. He got utterly dismantled by two guys who didn't belong in the same ring with a guy as talented as he was. True he avenged his losses (If you can call the second McCall fight a fight) but the point is he shouldn't have had to fight them a second time.

3. He didn't give Klitschko a rematch. The one guy who gave him a decent enough fight lost because of a cut and Lennox wouldn't grant him a rematch. Instead Lennox retires. Lennox should have granted Klitchsko a rematch and went out on a dominant note if he actually believed he was better than Vitali. Instead we got a sloppy slugfest, that Vitali was winning, with a less than clarifying ending. I could see the point in not granting a rematch if Lennox had dominated from the opening bell and then it was stopped for cuts. And its hard to believe he retired on such a whimper and not a dominant performance.

4. He's British/Canadian














(Just kidding with #4 )



Anyway, there are 3 of the big issues I have with Lennox and placing him in my top 10.
Sometimes he was cautious but look at some of the people he fought and who he stopped.

His first big performance against Ruddock better than any of Tyson's 2 fights with him.
The only man to put Tucker down, something Tyson couldn't do.
Toughed it out and went toe to toe with the dangerous Ray Mercer.
Stopped 2 big punchers in Bruno and Morrison.
Brilliant performance against Andrew Golota totally dismantled who gave Bowe such a hard time in both fights.
Slugged it out with Shannon Briggs who was dangerous for a few rounds anyway and took all his best punches.
2 fights against Holyfield and outboxes him, why get in a war with Holyfield if you don't have to. (Ali was never criticized for boxing to a decision, yet Lewis does)
Dismantles Botha.
Dismantles Grant.
Totally outboxes Tua another dangerous opponent and takes his best punches.
Gains revenge of Rahman in one of the best knockouts ever seen in heavyweight history.
Outboxes and beats up Tyson and again Tyson did land quite a few punches on his chin.
And in his last fight way way past his prime while losing on all cards to Klitchko a big dangerous opponent again he took everything he had to offer and while tired was less tired than Klitchko and was busting him up (yes the cuts were legit) Lewis was landing the better harder punches from the 5th round on and it was Klitchko that was trying to hold at every opportunity and stumbling forward throwing clumsy punches, Lewis was tired I know but his punches were getting better as the fight went on. Watch the fight again.

The 2 defeats were against fighters that should never have beat him, but the problem with Lewis was against inferior opposition he always got lazy.
The first McCall fight while he may have been stopped had it gone on he was never given the chance. He was up at 6 and the only time a heavyweight champion has never been given the chance to continue. Stop the Larry Holmes fight right after he gets up and 99/100 people would say Shavers is gonna stop him. Lewis should have been given the chance to continue.
The first Rahman fight he got clean ko'd but he was old and past his prime and was too busy filming and got lazy. Excuses no, you should never underestimate an opponent and it was all his fault, but he came back and at his age to win in even better style and still beats Tyson and Klitchko. Everyone makes a point of Tyson and Holyfield being past it, so was Lewis but he was a clever fighter and fought how he needed to to win.
The myth is he had a glass jaw which is absolute nonsense. How many big punchers did he face and took all their punches because he was up for the fights. Ruddock,Mercer,Bruno,Morrison,Golota,Grant,Holyfie ld,Tua and Tyson couldn't shift him and them fighters could punch with the best of them.

Please watch these clips and tell me he had a glass jaw or was boring and cautious.





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#520
Old 10-25-2007, 09:12 PM
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Sometimes he was cautious but look at some of the people he fought and who he stopped.

His first big performance against Ruddock better than any of Tyson's 2 fights with him.
The only man to put Tucker down, something Tyson couldn't do.
Toughed it out and went toe to toe with the dangerous Ray Mercer.
Stopped 2 big punchers in Bruno and Morrison.
Brilliant performance against Andrew Golota totally dismantled who gave Bowe such a hard time in both fights.
Slugged it out with Shannon Briggs who was dangerous for a few rounds anyway and took all his best punches.
2 fights against Holyfield and outboxes him, why get in a war with Holyfield if you don't have to. (Ali was never criticized for boxing to a decision, yet Lewis does)
Dismantles Botha.
Dismantles Grant.
Totally outboxes Tua another dangerous opponent and takes his best punches.
Gains revenge of Rahman in one of the best knockouts ever seen in heavyweight history.
Outboxes and beats up Tyson and again Tyson did land quite a few punches on his chin.
And in his last fight way way past his prime while losing on all cards to Klitchko a big dangerous opponent again he took everything he had to offer and while tired was less tired than Klitchko and was busting him up (yes the cuts were legit) Lewis was landing the better harder punches from the 5th round on and it was Klitchko that was trying to hold at every opportunity and stumbling forward throwing clumsy punches, Lewis was tired I know but his punches were getting better as the fight went on. Watch the fight again.

The 2 defeats were against fighters that should never have beat him, but the problem with Lewis was against inferior opposition he always got lazy.
The first McCall fight while he may have been stopped had it gone on he was never given the chance. He was up at 6 and the only time a heavyweight champion has never been given the chance to continue. Stop the Larry Holmes fight right after he gets up and 99/100 people would say Shavers is gonna stop him. Lewis should have been given the chance to continue.
The first Rahman fight he got clean ko'd but he was old and past his prime and was too busy filming and got lazy. Excuses no, you should never underestimate an opponent and it was all his fault, but he came back and at his age to win in even better style and still beats Tyson and Klitchko. Everyone makes a point of Tyson and Holyfield being past it, so was Lewis but he was a clever fighter and fought how he needed to to win.
The myth is he had a glass jaw which is absolute nonsense. How many big punchers did he face and took all their punches because he was up for the fights. Ruddock,Mercer,Bruno,Morrison,Golota,Grant,Holyfie ld,Tua and Tyson couldn't shift him and them fighters could punch with the best of them.

Please watch these clips and tell me he had a glass jaw or was boring and cautious.
My point was, to be specific, that he was overly cautious with guys he didn't need to be. He severely outclassed most guys he was in the ring with, yet he always was ultra-defensive. Almost apprehensive. And his overly cautious style against mediocre opposition made him out to look like alot less than he really was. Case in point was the Evander fights. Evander never wasa big puncher. He was shot by the time Lennox got to him yet Lennox was so cautious it wasn't funny. If Lennox had been a little more assertive he could have clearly won both of those borefests.

However, I never made the accusation that he had a glass jaw, just that he got put down by two guys who shouldn't have beaten him. I've always defended Lewis on that end. He could take a good punch.

I don't buy the fact that he was way past his prime. Lewis reached his prime alot later than most fighters. It took him awhile to grow into that big body. I just think he got alot lazier towards the end because he didn't look like he was in top shape.

When the Klitschko fight was stopped Lewis was coming on, but the fact remains Vitali had won more rounds up to that point and Lennox should have given him a rematch and settled it. The way he retired gives the impression that he didn't think he could defeat Vitali or was apprehensive about possibly losing the belt before he got out of the game. I think there should be an automatic rematch clause for championship fights that end in anything but a knockout or unanimous decision.

It may not sound like it, but I liked Lennox. However I don't place him in my top 10.

On sidenote, two of the lowest class things I have seen were Bowe and Tyson both dropping belts instead of facing Lewis. That made both of those fighters out to be guys that were afraid to lose.
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