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#501
Old 10-25-2007, 03:25 PM
Hawk O'Connor
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Originally Posted by Toddy View Post
No i respect your criticism mate. I put braddock up so high because for a man who had been exiled and had such a disasterous career at one point, for him to make a come back and beat the likes of john henry lewis and max baer, it takes a lot to accomplish such things against such good fighters at the time. You are right, tunne is naturaly a light-heavy and i know he beat a born heavyweight but dempsey had by far the better knock out ratio and he did create an impact from a young age, i just think their contrast of styles makes me put dempsey higher up because IMO dempsey was more exciting, but then again that is my opinion mate.
In reference to Jimmy Braddock, don't you think his overall body of work and quality of opposition pale in comparison to most of the all-time greats? No disrespect to Jimmy because it's a remarkable story just wondering if maybe sentimental leanings didn't weigh into your decision as opposed to true analysis.
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#502
Old 10-25-2007, 03:26 PM
Toddy
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Originally Posted by Toddy View Post
sorry mate. My criteria would probably be:
-What each fighter has achieved.
-The quality of opposition
-Their ability to bounce back from a loss
-Their ability to fight even when experiencing life issues
im not giving out points as most (if not all) of my criteria is subjective. But i would like you to state what you think and even (if you want) re-order my list according to what you think.
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#503
Old 10-25-2007, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Toddy View Post
sorry mate. My criteria would probably be:
-What each fighter has achieved.
-The quality of opposition
-Their ability to bounce back from a loss
-Their ability to fight even when experiencing life issues
That's cool pretty much the same as me.
As I said check out my revised list on the pages I said earlier and let me know what you think. It's the fairest way I could think of.

P.S. In regards to you getting togeather with us for this consensus then that's more than fine with me I'm sure Hawk will think so the more the merrier.

P.P.S Got to zip off for a few hours as I'm watching Spurs in europe I'll get back around 10.30 if your still around.
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#504
Old 10-25-2007, 03:30 PM
Toddy
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Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
In reference to Jimmy Braddock, don't you think his overall body of work and quality of opposition pale in comparison to most of the all-time greats? No disrespect to Jimmy because it's a remarkable story just wondering if maybe sentimental leanings didn't weigh into your decision as opposed to true analysis.
To be fair mate i do feel a bit of sentimental respect for the man but i did not let that interfere with my decision. His quality of opposition was fairly bleak, but in the time of the great depression and fighting with a broken bones in his hand did not help. Had he been in fighting form throughout his career i think he would have fought the best at the time, and in one way i suppose he did because he fought and beat all the main contenders for the HW title and beat the champion. He did lose to Joe louis but performed well by knocking him down. He then fought Tommar farr and pulled off another successful win. You are right though, he did have plenty of losses and fought plenty of bleak fighters, but considering the circumstances at the time, i just think he performed very well.
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#505
Old 10-25-2007, 03:31 PM
Hawk O'Connor
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Originally Posted by Toddy View Post
1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammed Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. James J. Braddock
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Joe Frazier
9. George Foreman
10. Jack Johnson
Of your list the only points I would truly debate you over Jimmy Braddock in the top 10 and Lennox being placed over Jack Johnson and Joe Frazier. I like Lennox, and although he is not in my top ten, and a fair argument can be made for his placement in the top 10. I just don't think he rates a higher placement than Smokin' Joe or Jack Johnson.

As for Braddock, IMO, his overall achievements are lackluster when comparing him to the rest of the elite. If you rank him then Buster Douglas could also warrant a place in a ten best list.


Hawk
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#506
Old 10-25-2007, 03:32 PM
Toddy
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Originally Posted by hurricane72 View Post
That's cool pretty much the same as me.
As I said check out my revised list on the pages I said earlier and let me know what you think. It's the fairest way I could think of.

P.S. In regards to you getting togeather with us for this consensus then that's more than fine with me I'm sure Hawk will think so the more the merrier.

P.P.S Got to zip off for a few hours as I'm watching Spurs in europe I'll get back around 10.30 if your still around
.
il be sure to check it out mate. And you're a yid?? i am to mate!! bloody shame the way we've been performing back in britain though i mean 3-1 to newcastle! Jol needs to get his act together.
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#507
Old 10-25-2007, 03:35 PM
Toddy
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Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
Of your list the only points I would truly debate you over Jimmy Braddock in the top 10 and Lennox being placed over Jack Johnson and Joe Frazier. I like Lennox, and although he is not in my top ten, and a fair argument can be made for his placement in the top 10. I just don't think he rates a higher placement than Smokin' Joe or Jack Johnson.

As for Braddock, IMO, his overall achievements are lackluster when comparing him to the rest of the elite. If you rank him then Buster Douglas could also warrant a place in a ten best list.


Hawk
agreed. looking back over my list it could do with that being adjusted. But Lennox did have the talent and did beat the best at the time, say for a few. Im comparison to who johnson and frazier fought il agree with you there mate . as for braddock i get what you mean about douglas but he only really beat tyson. Braddock beat Corn griffin, John henry lewis, art Lasky and Max baer. For a man who had been exiled and had no real training in months id say thats more impressive than beating tyson. But thats just IMO mate.
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#508
Old 10-25-2007, 03:38 PM
Hawk O'Connor
Erin go Bragh
 
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Originally Posted by Toddy View Post
agreed. looking back over my list it could do with that being adjusted. But Lennox did have the talent and did beat the best at the time, say for a few. Im comparison to who johnson and frazier fought il agree with you there mate . as for braddock i get what you mean about douglas but he only really beat tyson. Braddock beat Corn griffin, John henry lewis, art Lasky and Max baer. For a man who had been exiled and had no real training in months id say thats more impressive than beating tyson. But thats just IMO mate.
I take nothing away from Lennox. I loved watching the man perform. He brought a level of prestige and class back to the division that had been lacking for abit. I've come close to placing him in my top 10 on a few occasions.

BTW I wasn't trying to **** on your list, just offering some points of interest.
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#509
Old 10-25-2007, 03:45 PM
Toddy
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Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
I take nothing away from Lennox. I loved watching the man perform. He brought a level of prestige and class back to the division that had been lacking for abit. I've come close to placing him in my top 10 on a few occasions.

BTW I wasn't trying to **** on your list, just offering some points of interest.
No mate i wasn't takin offence im actualy happy you took an interest in it
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#510
Old 10-25-2007, 04:03 PM
Hawk O'Connor
Erin go Bragh
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Knoxville, TN
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Rep Power: 9 Hawk O'Connor has a reputation beyond reputeHawk O'Connor has a reputation beyond reputeHawk O'Connor has a reputation beyond reputeHawk O'Connor has a reputation beyond reputeHawk O'Connor has a reputation beyond reputeHawk O'Connor has a reputation beyond reputeHawk O'Connor has a reputation beyond reputeHawk O'Connor has a reputation beyond reputeHawk O'Connor has a reputation beyond reputeHawk O'Connor has a reputation beyond reputeHawk O'Connor has a reputation beyond repute
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Out of curiousness where do you rate Holyfield and Tyson?
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