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#41
Old 08-29-2007, 07:10 PM
The Iron Man
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I didnt say souley on achievements otherwise i agree they would be the same, other things are taken into account! Are you saying this wouldnt be your normal top 10 list?
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#42
Old 08-29-2007, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by them_apples View Post
Ali has lost more fights than that. Frazier, Norton, Spinks, Holmes and Berbick have all defeated him, mind you the last 3 were more like beating up and old man.

Not to be persistent, but there were many fighter's in the 70's that would get very tired in the ring.

George Foreman, Ron Lyle, Ernie shavers, and even Ali during his later career.

However, while today sucks, during the 80's I haven't seen any footage of the top fighters ever tiring to the point of collapse.
Dude, you specifically said knocked out. Ali was NEVER KOed. The Holmes fight is the ONLY example of him being STOPPED. The fight he lost to Frazier was a 15 round decision loss. The Norton fight was a 12 round decision loss.
No KOs were involved.

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#43
Old 08-29-2007, 09:22 PM
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He was basically KO'd in Frazier I.. Out on his feet, way worse than Frazier in R14 of the Thrilla. Shows you his will to not give up 'tho, that he even held on like he did, and it's not like he didn't already know he was going to lose (Frazier I).
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#44
Old 08-29-2007, 10:19 PM
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The fighters from the 70's who you are referring to that got "tired to the point of collapse" only ever got that way because they fought fights (and entire careers, for that matter) against an extremely tough heavyweight division full of fighters with high work rates, toughness, and longevity. Foreman is an exception, and he usually got tired after 7 rounds. This is understandable, however, because his arms were quite simply heavy, and throwing that hard for that long, while it should kill his opponent, would probably get tiring for him.

Holmes and Ali, before they got old, looked pretty good by the fight's end; both have 15th round KO's against good opponents. The fighters of the 80's didn't have to worry about 15 round fights anymore, so of course they didn't look as tired.

Frazier exerted more effort in one round than a lot of guys did in 4 or 5, yet he still brought the kitchen sink in the 15th.

The greats only got tired at the end because they were fighting another great, and working hard enough to warrant exhaustion.

It should also be noted that Louis didn't fight "tomato cans", he fought whoever was there and at the top. He made them look bad because he was that far ahead of the game. Tomato cans are the guys that George Foreman used to pad his record during both parts of his career. Even so, he still beat good opponents when the time came. Perhaps the bums are only truly as such when put up against great fighters. I think that the term "tomato cans" is used too liberally, given the people they lost to.

As a side note: Shavers has a far more impressive resume (ie: Ali, Holmes x2, Norton, Ellis, Young, etc.), and more power than does Tua, and Shavers would never make a top 20, let alone a top 10.
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#45
Old 08-29-2007, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Brassangel View Post
The fighters from the 70's who you are referring to that got "tired to the point of collapse" only ever got that way because they fought fights (and entire careers, for that matter) against an extremely tough heavyweight division full of fighters with high work rates, toughness, and longevity. Foreman is an exception, and he usually got tired after 7 rounds. This is understandable, however, because his arms were quite simply heavy, and throwing that hard for that long, while it should kill his opponent, would probably get tiring for him.

Holmes and Ali, before they got old, looked pretty good by the fight's end; both have 15th round KO's against good opponents. The fighters of the 80's didn't have to worry about 15 round fights anymore, so of course they didn't look as tired.

Frazier exerted more effort in one round than a lot of guys did in 4 or 5, yet he still brought the kitchen sink in the 15th.

The greats only got tired at the end because they were fighting another great, and working hard enough to warrant exhaustion.

It should also be noted that Louis didn't fight "tomato cans", he fought whoever was there and at the top. He made them look bad because he was that far ahead of the game. Tomato cans are the guys that George Foreman used to pad his record during both parts of his career. Even so, he still beat good opponents when the time came. Perhaps the bums are only truly as such when put up against great fighters. I think that the term "tomato cans" is used too liberally, given the people they lost to.

As a side note: Shavers has a far more impressive resume (ie: Ali, Holmes x2, Norton, Ellis, Young, etc.), and more power than does Tua, and Shavers would never make a top 20, let alone a top 10.
* - except in Manilla.

I think Ali would be THE clear-cut #1 had he either beaten a "legit" Sonny Liston or had he not dropped those decisions to Norton and Spinks.
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#46
Old 08-30-2007, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ForemanCrossArm View Post
He was basically KO'd in Frazier I.. Out on his feet, way worse than Frazier in R14 of the Thrilla. Shows you his will to not give up 'tho, that he even held on like he did, and it's not like he didn't already know he was going to lose (Frazier I).
Did he or did he not have score cards read in the first Frazier fight? It's a retorical question because the answer is, of course, he did. Either you're KOed or you aren't. You aren't sorta KOed or basically KOed: Either the ref counted ten or he didn't. The third fight was stopped NOT because Frazier was out on his feet but because his left eye was completely closed and he couldn't see Ali's right coming any more. I will also point out that the idea of 70's Heavyweights being gassed at the end of 15 is not entirely correct. Some were, like Earnie Shavers, but for every Shavers there was a Frazier who went bell to bell punching non-stop and not even breathing hard in the 15th.

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Last edited by Ziggy Stardust; 08-30-2007 at 07:22 AM.
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#47
Old 08-30-2007, 06:50 AM
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Continued from the other day

1.Ali vs Louis = Ali Wu15 Louis
2.Holmes vs Lewis = Holmes KO10 Lewis (Difficult this one was, Lewis loved to control the pace of the fight, if Holmes would have let him I see him winning, but I see Holmes forcing the fight and making Lewis fight at a higher pace than he wants to, and knocks out a tired Lewis)

1.Ali vs Holmes = Holmes Ws15 Ali (Another difficult one this, again I feel Holmes would have to force the fight and pressure Ali, as he wouldn't outbox him, Holmes would withstand everything Ali threw at him and at the end of an exhausting fight he wins a very close decision, but Ali would win in a rematch with different tactics not being drawn in so much)
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#48
Old 08-30-2007, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brassangel View Post

As a side note: Shavers has a far more impressive resume (ie: Ali, Holmes x2, Norton, Ellis, Young, etc.), and more power than does Tua, and Shavers would never make a top 20, let alone a top 10.
** Except that Shavers lost half of those fights and many others. Shavers wouldn't stand a chance against an iron jawed Tua so not sure what your point is.
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#49
Old 08-30-2007, 11:43 AM
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** Except that Shavers lost half of those fights and many others. Shavers wouldn't stand a chance against an iron jawed Tua so not sure what your point is
yea I agree, that was pretty much my point also
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#50
Old 08-30-2007, 12:59 PM
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Shavers lost some of those fights, but he gave them absolute hell before he did. Tua had a good chin, but it wasn't Ali's or Holmes'. Shavers knocked Holmes down multiple times and had Ali out on his feet twice. Tua would never lay a glove on Ali, probably not Holmes either. It would be like his first fight with Rahman, where he was dominated the entire time, only there would be no "miracle punch after the bell." Whether or not Shavers would beat Tua isn't the issue, because a top ten list isn't determined by head-to-head matchups, or else guys like Foreman, Tyson, etc., would always rank higher.

* - Frazier didn't finish in Manila, but he wanted to. Ali was telling his own corner to stop the fight, but Frazier's corner beat him to it. Many fighters from more recent generations would have died in the same scenario.

I will go so far as to say that Tua is underrated, by the way, but not if he is in the top 40.

Last edited by Brassangel; 08-30-2007 at 01:02 PM.
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