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#31
Old 08-28-2007, 11:11 PM
Brassangel
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I actually wrote a short story about the Frazier vs. Marciano one, though I was assuming 12 round competitions; more in line with today's standards.

I'm on edge about the decision to give Foreman a KO over Mike, but it could go either way.

Holyfield would be the sleeper in an event like this. That's what happened when I ran the NCAA 64 style bracket a looooong time ago; a lot of people kept on voting for him to steal wins, and it was possible given his skill, strength, and heart.

Coincidentally, the finals (based on votes) ended up:

SEMIS
1. Ali vs. 3. Tyson
1. Holmes vs. Louis

FINAL
Ali vs. Holmes
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#32
Old 08-29-2007, 01:25 AM
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1> Mike Tyson
2> Lennox Lewis
3> Larry Holmes
4> Evander Holyfield
5> Teophilio Stevenson
6> David Tua (yea he's under rated)
7> Frank Bruno
8>George Foreman
9> Joe Frazier
10>Muhammed Ali

My list seems to favor newer fighters but only because I think that with time boxers get better not worse. I respect the 40's-70's for having great fighters but the conditioning of the 40's-70's simply would not be able to stand against later fighters such as Holyfield, Tyson, or lewis (who is much larger than any other 40's-70's fighters)

Last edited by them_apples; 08-29-2007 at 01:36 AM.
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#33
Old 08-29-2007, 05:59 AM
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Them Apples - I'm not going to slag you off, cos everyone is entitled to their opinion, and while I agree with you in the fact that boxing has moved on in training methods etc and boxers are bigger, I honestly cannot see how you came to your conclusion in your top 10 list. Did you just base it on who you think would beat everyone else, even if you did this is IMO completely wrong. Have you watched much boxing before? A top 10 list should be based on length of reign, defences made, quality of opposition within the time they fought, attributes of the fighter such as speed,power,chin,ring generalship,tactical awareness, also did they fight everyone in their era worth fighting and how did they do against them.
Also I find it hard to agree with you when you say the fighters today were better conditioned than in the 40's-70's. Holyfield and some of the recent heavies maybe, but the 4 who reign today, no way. Louis,Walcott,Charles,Marciano,Ali,Frazier and even the contenders from them eras could fight longer and harder than today's so called heavyweight champs, and they were a lot tougher, they had to be because of the lack of money, which is why they fought more often.

Your list
1> Mike Tyson
2> Lennox Lewis
3> Larry Holmes
4> Evander Holyfield
5> Teophilio Stevenson
6> David Tua (yea he's under rated)
7> Frank Bruno
8>George Foreman
9> Joe Frazier
10>Muhammed Ali

I find it impossible to even think of Bruno and Tua to be in there, what have they achieved compared to others, absolutely nothing. Stevenson while he was one of the greatest amatuers, I really don't think he would have cut it against the top pros of his era. To have Tyson top is ludicrous, maybe he could have been the greatest of all time (check out my article, Tyson where did it all go wrong, for explanation). Tyson was beat comprehensively by the 2 other greats of his era, and lacked a lot of ingredients to be considered the best, also never achieved as much as Ali,Holmes,Lewis,Louis,Holyfield etc. I don't know if youv'e just started watching boxing and haven't seen the old time fighters, if not check out on youtube just to see some clips. Frank Bruno was lucky to win the title, had he fought against Louis,Marciano,Liston,Charles,Walcott,Dempsey,John son or pretty much any other champion you care to mention, he would have been beaten. I liked big frank and had he not lifted so many weights could have been better, but he was who he was a lumbering robot with a big punch and no stamina, but a really good chin and certainly not an all time great

Last edited by hurricane72; 08-29-2007 at 06:16 AM.
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#34
Old 08-29-2007, 06:41 AM
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yea I should just say my list was my opinion on who I think are to be the best boxers to hit the ring.

As for the conditioning of today, yes I worded it wrong, I meant the era that holy field - Tyson came out of..so basically the 80's-early nineties. Fighters of today can be on the shoddy side.

Yes Joe Louis had almost 30 title defenses but his fights are boring, and against "bums" any boxer of today or yesterday could have knocked them out. Any great boxer of the 70's or 80's could have put Joe Louis in a body bag.

But Ali!? he just brainwashed everyone! A prime Joe Frazier knocked him out, why does that go unnoticed? He just barely beat foreman, he lost to Norton, he had to go 12 rounds with bums like Doug Jones in his prime..not to mention the many defeats he lost while he was older.
Sure ali has some titles under his name, but why do people view him as the greatest?


No my list does not have the best records (Larry Holmes' is fairly good) I can honestly not bring my self to put boxers like jack Johnson or Joe Louis on it because I know they wouldn't have a chance in hell against a peak conditioned fighter from the 80's and even the 70's. I put Tua on the list because he hits like a freight train, sure his career wasn't amazing (mainly due to his height) but Tua was a great fighter, nobody could hurt him!

EDIT: did you ever watch the documentary on the Tyson - Douglas fight? Tyson was skipping training and just partying, he even got knocked down by his sparring partner! do you think thats how the "focused" mike trains/fights? Tyson was great before the money got to his head, but he remains in history as one of the few boxers that simply could not be touched when in their primes. Tyson knocked the hell out of his opponents, sometimes it only took one punch! Other hitters like Marciano usually continually beat on there opposition until they finally dropped. and honestly, what chance does a 186-190 lbs Marciano have against a 250 lb peak conditioned lewis?


cheers

Last edited by them_apples; 08-29-2007 at 06:56 AM.
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#35
Old 08-29-2007, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by them_apples View Post
yea I should just say my list was my opinion on who I think are to be the best boxers to hit the ring.

As for the conditioning of today, yes I worded it wrong, I meant the era that holy field - Tyson came out of..so basically the 80's-early nineties. Fighters of today can be on the shoddy side.

Yes Joe Louis had almost 30 title defenses but his fights are boring, and against "bums" any boxer of today or yesterday could have knocked them out. Any great boxer of the 70's or 80's could have put Joe Louis in a body bag.

But Ali!? he just brainwashed everyone! A prime Joe Frazier knocked him out, why does that go unnoticed? He just barely beat foreman, he lost to Norton, he had to go 12 rounds with bums like Doug Jones in his prime..not to mention the many defeats he lost while he was older.
Sure ali has some titles under his name, but why do people view him as the greatest?


No my list does not have the best records (Larry Holmes' is fairly good) I can honestly not bring my self to put boxers like jack Johnson or Joe Louis on it because I know they wouldn't have a chance in hell against a peak conditioned fighter from the 80's and even the 70's. I put Tua on the list because he hits like a freight train, sure his career wasn't amazing (mainly due to his height) but Tua was a great fighter, nobody could hurt him!

EDIT: did you ever watch the documentary on the Tyson - Douglas fight? Tyson was skipping training and just partying, he even got knocked down by his sparring partner! do you think thats how the "focused" mike trains/fights? Tyson was great before the money got to his head, but he remains in history as one of the few boxers that simply could not be touched when in their primes. Tyson knocked the hell out of his opponents, sometimes it only took one punch! Other hitters like Marciano usually continually beat on there opposition until they finally dropped. and honestly, what chance does a 186-190 lbs Marciano have against a 250 lb peak conditioned lewis?


cheers
And which fight did Frazier knock Ali OUT in? Doug Jones was NOT I repeat NOT a bum, and Mike Tyson was NOT I repeat NOT the greatest Heavyweight ever. Versatile is about the biggest Tyson fan there is but at least he has a level head on his shoulders about just how good Tyson was. You should go have a discussion about Tyson with Versatile and learn how to be a THINKING Tyson fan.

PS. Ali was stopped only once, by Larry Holmes, and even then he wasn't down: His corner stopped the fight between rounds.

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#36
Old 08-29-2007, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by them_apples View Post
yea I should just say my list was my opinion on who I think are to be the best boxers to hit the ring.

As for the conditioning of today, yes I worded it wrong, I meant the era that holy field - Tyson came out of..so basically the 80's-early nineties. Fighters of today can be on the shoddy side.

Yes Joe Louis had almost 30 title defenses but his fights are boring, and against "bums" any boxer of today or yesterday could have knocked them out. Any great boxer of the 70's or 80's could have put Joe Louis in a body bag.

But Ali!? he just brainwashed everyone! A prime Joe Frazier knocked him out, why does that go unnoticed? He just barely beat foreman, he lost to Norton, he had to go 12 rounds with bums like Doug Jones in his prime..not to mention the many defeats he lost while he was older.
Sure ali has some titles under his name, but why do people view him as the greatest?


No my list does not have the best records (Larry Holmes' is fairly good) I can honestly not bring my self to put boxers like jack Johnson or Joe Louis on it because I know they wouldn't have a chance in hell against a peak conditioned fighter from the 80's and even the 70's. I put Tua on the list because he hits like a freight train, sure his career wasn't amazing (mainly due to his height) but Tua was a great fighter, nobody could hurt him!

EDIT: did you ever watch the documentary on the Tyson - Douglas fight? Tyson was skipping training and just partying, he even got knocked down by his sparring partner! do you think thats how the "focused" mike trains/fights? Tyson was great before the money got to his head, but he remains in history as one of the few boxers that simply could not be touched when in their primes. Tyson knocked the hell out of his opponents, sometimes it only took one punch! Other hitters like Marciano usually continually beat on there opposition until they finally dropped. and honestly, what chance does a 186-190 lbs Marciano have against a 250 lb peak conditioned lewis?


cheers
Can somebody ban this fool?
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#37
Old 08-29-2007, 01:58 PM
Brassangel
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There's more to do with what drugs Ali was on leading up to the Holmes fight then there was with Larry Holmes.

In all fairness, Frazier did put Ali out on his feet in their first fight, and Ali himself said he was going to quit in their third fight, had Frazier's corner not called it off. Even so, Ali missed much of his prime fighting years, and came back to dominate the deepest heavyweight division in history. He beat the hard working, the seemingly invincible, and the proud.

Top ten lists are supposed to include title reigns, level of opposition, dominance, with head-to-heads way down near the bottom of the list. I, for example, rate Joe Louis as #1, with Muhammad Ali as #2, yet I firmly believe that Ali would cut Louis up and down the ring. There is also no proof whatsoever that the conditioning of fighters from recent years would give them an edge again the fighters of old. Joe Frazier, for example, worked so hard during the course of a heavyweight fight, that he would tire out almost any fighter from recent years. He simply punched and slipped and punched and slipped until his opponents couldn't go anymore. Even the good heavies from the 90's didn't carry that sort of work ethic, short of perhaps Holyfield.

Louis was not a boring fighter, by the way. He was very tactically sound, and could figure out almost any opponent. His only "real" loss was avenged in brutal fashion, and he didn't lose again until waaaaaaaaaaay later in life, after serving in the military, against two guys who are definitely not bums.
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#38
Old 08-29-2007, 05:24 PM
them_apples
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Quote:
PS. Ali was stopped only once, by Larry Holmes, and even then he wasn't down: His corner stopped the fight between rounds.
Ali has lost more fights than that. Frazier, Norton, Spinks, Holmes and Berbick have all defeated him, mind you the last 3 were more like beating up and old man.

Not to be persistent, but there were many fighter's in the 70's that would get very tired in the ring.

George Foreman, Ron Lyle, Ernie shavers, and even Ali during his later career.

However, while today sucks, during the 80's I haven't seen any footage of the top fighters ever tiring to the point of collapse.

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#39
Old 08-29-2007, 06:42 PM
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Them Apples - I respect other peoples views, but as others have said the top heavyweights of all time are judged on there achievments, there technical ability and also there excitment. I am a big mike tyson fan but i couldnt put him top of the ATG list, he had the potential and if we are talking about fighters primes then there is an arguement there. But Wen you compare his achivements to Joe Louis, Ali and Marciano then they seem very small. As for Bruno Being in the list, he had what one title defence in which he lost to Mike Tyson (One not at its best i might add), his technical ability was not great and he could never regain the championship, i would struggle to put him in my top 20.As for Tua he has never won a World title, and he isnt the greatest non-title holder yes he has a great punch..but that spot of Big Punch no belt is taken By Ernie Shavers. As for Conditioning, not all fighters of the 80s were well conditioned, and remember you dnt have to looked ribbed to go all the rounds. Theres a difference between conditioning and looking good.For Example the Tyson in my avatar looks good his ripped, this fight was against mcneely and i think he would of struggled to go all 10, not that it was going to!
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#40
Old 08-29-2007, 07:01 PM
them_apples
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Them Apples - I respect other peoples views, but as others have said the top heavyweights of all time are judged on there achievments, there technical ability and also there excitment. I am a big mike tyson fan but i couldnt put him top of the ATG list, he had the potential and if we are talking about fighters primes then there is an arguement there. But Wen you compare his achivements to Joe Louis, Ali and Marciano then they seem very small. As for Bruno Being in the list, he had what one title defence in which he lost to Mike Tyson (One not at its best i might add), his technical ability was not great and he could never regain the championship, i would struggle to put him in my top 20.As for Tua he has never won a World title, and he isnt the greatest non-title holder yes he has a great punch..but that spot of Big Punch no belt is taken By Ernie Shavers. As for Conditioning, not all fighters of the 80s were well conditioned, and remember you dnt have to looked ribbed to go all the rounds. Theres a difference between conditioning and looking good.For Example the Tyson in my avatar looks good his ripped, this fight was against mcneely and i think he would of struggled to go all 10, not that it was going to!

If everyones list is based on achievements then every list should be the same? Because obviously Joe Louis will come out on top. The times were different, nobody is going to have 25 title defenses ever again unless tomato cans are lined up.

In that case no Tua shouldn't even come close to the list, ether should Bruno
and Stevenson good as he was didn't even turn pro because of his loyalty to Cuba.

I made my list based on the threat title "Top 10 heavies from best to worst"
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