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#21
Old 08-24-2007, 10:54 AM
hemichromis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brassangel View Post
@hurricane:

Lewis was the same "age" as Tyson and Holyfield when he fought them, but Lewis had hit the zenith of his career, while the other two were on the way down. Some guys hit their stride later than others.

Tyson's style and build, for example, probably would have meant that even if he hadn't gone to prison, he would have started to slide downwards by the time he was 28-30 years old. While the skill and speed were still visible in training sessions, continuous fighting of that style would have taken a toll on his body, much as it had Frazier, Patterson, and Marciano. Tyson had a second layoff prior to his fight with Lewis, giving him a total of 5 1/2 years of on-and-off inactivity during Lewis' uprising.

Holyfield was completely drained after fighting a rediculous series of wars. The man simply needed a break and just got overmatched by Lewis (though the judges "gifted" him differently.) Lennox Lewis had not gone through this kind of strain.

Lewis' body was large, and fairly mobile, giving him the kind of longevity that the infighters just couldn't possess. Remember the early stages of Lewis' career, however, where he was a lanky, awkward guy with a wide stance and terrible defense. He won against a lot of nobodies before his skills developed, and he really didn't prime until he was almost 30 years old. Because of this, I have trouble believing that he was truly the victor over Holyfield and Tyson. Nonetheless, he was definitely a great champion, and I am one of the few who even place him in the top ten. Much of the 90's hinges on the fact that Tyson was absent for so much of it. Had Tyson never gone to prison, the 90's would have perhaps been the strongest decade for heavyweights. Lewis, Holyfield, and Tyson, among many others (ie: Bowe, Foreman, Morrison, Mercer, Moorer, Rahman later on, etc.), battling back and forth for titles. This is one of the reasons why I rate him above Lewis; his absence almost single handedly brought down the division.

As a side note: I never thought that Rahman was terrible. When he was in shape coming up, he was really a solid boxer. I remember his first fight with Tua, when both of them were in good shape. Even though Tua scored an extremely late (and dramatic) stoppage, Rahman was punishing him all around the ring for 10 1/2 rounds. He was cut, with solid defense, and had a good jab.

In a randomized bracket:

2. Muhammad Ali vs. 10. Lennox Lewis
5. George Foreman vs. 8. Sonny Liston
3. Rocky Marciano vs. 7. Mike Tyson
6. Joe Frazier vs. 9. Jack Dempsey
4. Larry Holmes vs. 1. Joe Louis

Who wins? Who faces off afterwards? What's the final outcome?

i can see your point when it comes to styles and longevity. frazier tyson and dempsey all had short explosive careers, holmes louis and tunney had longer more consistent careers.

I am quite sure a 35 year old lewis beats a 35 yearold tyson every time. i am also sure that a 25 yearold tyson would beat a 25 yearold lewis. I find it very hard to find a definate outcome between both in thir primes (tyson at 25, lewis at 35) they are very evenly matched and anything could happen. i would perhaps give lewis the sight edgesue to his size and intelligence
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#22
Old 08-24-2007, 11:09 AM
Brassangel
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Yeah, it's tough to say, because the Tyson at 25, who likely would have been at his peak, the Tyson who would have shown that he learned something from defeat, was instead wasting away in prison.

What are your predictions for the mini-bracket I made? Maybe that belongs in fantasy matchups or something, but it's always fun to resurrect that sort of thing here as well.
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#23
Old 08-24-2007, 11:20 AM
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2. Muhammad Ali vs. 10. Lennox Lewis

This is a tought one to call, if this was an early lewis i would definatley give it to Ali, as lewis wasnt as strong as he was in his 30's, and ali could use his speed and intelligence to box round him. Ali had a great chin so could handle a good punch from Lewis in his early days. As for Lewis in his 30s, its hard to call and i cant come to a conclusion.


5. George Foreman vs. 8. Sonny Liston

These are very similar fighters but george foreman was more skilled than liston, and as mayb more powerfull so id give this to Foreman Via KO in the middle rounds.

3. Rocky Marciano vs. 7. Mike Tyson

Tyson has a good weight advantage over Marciano, he is alot faster and because of the weight advantage more powerfull, im sure rocky would get up after being knocked down as he was soo resiliant thats why tyson would win via a TKO around round 5

I have to rush so cant answer the others atm..will do l8er
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#24
Old 08-26-2007, 01:26 PM
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Well these are my top 10 Heavyweights

1. Rocky Marciano
2. Muhammad Ali
3. George Foreman
4. Joe Louis
5. Joe Frazier
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Mike Tyson
8. Sonny Liston
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jersey Joe Walcott
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#25
Old 08-27-2007, 01:04 PM
Dempsey 1919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonRingRules View Post
The toughest fighter he faced in his prime was Terrell who gave him hell in spite of what you read about that fight. Had Terrell be a big puncher, the outcome might have been different.
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#26
Old 08-27-2007, 02:00 PM
Brassangel
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Yeah, in the NCAA sense, it would be 1 vs. 10., 2 vs. 9., etc., but I was angling for interesting matchups.

You are right about the awkward number of pairings, and someone would end up with a buy or fighting more than anyone else.

Frazier vs. Dempsey would be interesting. If Joe survived those early rounds, it would be extremely difficult later on. I think the same could have been said for his matchup with Foreman. If Joe would have used more movement to take a little zip off of Foreman's punches, and made it to round 4 or 5 (in their first meeting when Joe was closer to his prime), then I think he would have had a shot at bringing the big guy down. He's just as tough as they come in mid-to-late rounds. That's also why he's good in a tournament type setting, I think.

Which fighters get included if we go down to 16?

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Larry Holmes
5. George Foreman
6. Joe Frazier
7. Mike Tyson
8. Sonny Liston
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Lennox Lewis
11. Jack Johnson?
12. Evander Holyfield?
13. Joe Walcott?
14. Ezzard Charles?
15. Gene Tunney?
16. Floyd Patterson?


It really becomes a big mess once you go below ten. Anywho, I'll stop rambling.
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#27
Old 08-28-2007, 05:35 AM
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Personally these would be my 16

1> Muhammad Ali
2> Larry Holmes
3> Lennox Lewis
4> Joe Louis
5> Evander Holyfield
6> Jack Johnson
7> George Foreman
8> Rocky Marciano
9> Joe Frazier
10>Mike Tyson
11>Jack Dempsey
12>Sonny Liston
13>Ezzard Charles
14>Riddick Bowe
15>Joe Walcott
16>Gene Tunney

This is not much different from yours, Bowe instead of Patterson, and different order. Just realised that if we did it my way with my list, Lewis would fight Bowe, and there would be some other really inruiging fights

1.Ali - Tunney
2.Holmes - Walcott
3.Lewis - Bowe
4.Louis - Charles
5.Holyfield - Liston
6.Johnson - Dempsey
7.Foreman - Tyson
8.Marciano - Frazier

I would then have winner of fight 1 against 8 and so on, are you happy to do it this way, or would you like your list or any other fighters
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#28
Old 08-28-2007, 02:00 PM
Brassangel
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I could see Bowe replacing Patterson, it's just that Patterson was a force among heavyweights for a longer period of time than Bowe was. Taking your bracket, however:

1.Ali vs Tunney = Ali
2.Holmes vs Walcott = Holmes
3.Lewis (I wouldn't have Lewis this high, however) vs Bowe = Lewis
4.Louis vs Charles = Louis
5.Holyfield vs Liston = that's frieking tough..
6.Johnson vs Dempsey = Johnson
7.Foreman vs Tyson = I think Tyson could win a decision, much like Morrison did: stay at mid-range, and use his surperior hands speed and elusiveness to outscore him. I absolutely disagree with the idea that this fight would end up like Foreman-Frazier.
8.Marciano vs Frazier = 87 rounds

Last edited by Brassangel; 08-28-2007 at 04:05 PM.
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#29
Old 08-28-2007, 04:11 PM
Brassangel
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And if we'd keep going by ranking instead of by bracket set-up:

1. Ali vs. Marciano = that's tough. Ali would cut Marciano up, but the Rock would just keep coming. If it goes late, it would be tough to keep Rocky off, even for Ali.

2. Holmes vs. Tyson = Good style matchup for both fighters. Cus trained Tyson with fighters like Holmes in mind, and Holmes was a little slower than was Ali or Tyson. There would be lots of action, and both fighters have good chins. It would come down to a decision.

3. Lewis vs. Johnson = jabs and defense...I think Lewis' size may give him the edge, although Johnson did knock someguys' teeth out, which could pose a problem for the big man.

4. Louis vs. Liston/Holyfield = I still haven't picked a winner from the previous round, though either would make for a great fight with Louis.

This is insanely hard.
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#30
Old 08-28-2007, 06:53 PM
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O.K, I'll give it a try

1.Ali vs Tunney = Ali tko 13
2.Holmes vs Walcott = Holmes Wu15
3.Lewis vs Bowe = Lewis ko 6
4.Louis vs Charles = Louis Wu 15 Close fight this one, Charles boxing skills could give Louis some problems
5.Holyfield vs Liston = Holyfield Ws15 Your'e right, this is tough I see Liston dominating the first 6 rounds, and maybe putting Holyfield down but Holyfield gets off the deck and starts to outwork a tiring Liston and wins close decision)
6.Johnson vs Dempsey = Johnson Wu15, frustrating Dempsey all night
7.Foreman vs Tyson = Foreman KO6 I can see this being like the Lyle fight with both fighters hitting the deck, but Foremans will to win helps him prevail
8.Marciano vs Frazier = Marciano Ws15 This is another tough one to call

1.Ali vs Marciano = Ali tko13 I feel Ali would have too much for Marciano, the rock would keep coming at Ali all night, but his speed and precision would eventually take its toll
2.Holmes vs Foreman = Holmes rsf10 Foreman starts strong but if anyone could take Foremans punches it was Holmes, Foreman runs out of stamina and ref steps in to save Foreman from further punishment
3.Lewis vs Johnson = Lewis KO4, As good as Johnson was in his time Lewis would have too much in every department
4.Louis vs Holyfield = Louis Wu15, Louis was an exception, way ahead of his time and could fight even in todays era

1.Ali vs Louis = Ali Wu15
2.Holmes vs Lewis = This is extremely difficult, I've been on this one for ages, I'll get back to you on this tomorrow
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