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#111
Old 09-07-2007, 10:47 AM
The Iron Man
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I'm talking about boxers who were the most important to the history of boxing. -

Well Thats Hypocritical for someone who hasnt got Tyson in their top 10, the most influential Boxer in the last 20years..possibly ever!!
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#112
Old 09-07-2007, 04:30 PM
WelshDevilRob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiley Hyena View Post
Consideration of history's top ten heavyweights cannot be based simply upon one's notion of who could beat who because any dominant heavyweight in his prime could beat any other dominant heavyweight in his prime on any given, or lucky, day.
The issue requires consideration of the following factors, with equal emphasis on each: 1. Impact upon the culture; 2. Impact upon the sport; 3. Length of championship reign; 4. Win/Loss record; 5. Strength of the competition of the subject's era; and 5. Overall talent.
Accordingly, history's top ten are:
10. Evander Holyfield. Undersized body but oversized heart, and one of the greatest chins in boxing history. In his prime, Holy could have competed with any fighter of any era. And, he handily whipped Tyson;
9. George Foreman. One of the most powerful punchers the sport has ever seen. Regained a belt in his 40s;
8. Larry Holmes. Length of reign and win/loss record place Holmes in the top ten despite a rather ordinary level of competition;
7. John L. Sullivan. The great bareknuckler who first popularized the fight game in the United States;
6. Jack Johnson. One of the greatest defensive fighters ever seen. He won the true "fight of the century" against the aging iron man, Jim Jeffries, thus crossing the cultural color line to the benefit of the sport and the country;
5. Jack Dempsey. The most ferocious fighter of the 20th century and America's first sports "superstar." Babe Ruth thought Dempsey was a god;
4. Rocky Marciano. Retired as undefeated champion. Enough said;
3. Muhammad Ali. Charismatic stylist and a great talent. He won multiple championships and undeniably left his mark on the culture and the sport;
2. Joe Louis. Longest championship reign in history. Hemingway said of Louis, "He was the greatest fighting machine that ever strapped on gloves."
1. James J. "The Boilermaker" Jeffries. In his prime, Jeffries was never beaten or even knocked down. He retired as the undefeated champion of the world. Six years later he came out of retirement for one fight only, and incurred his only loss to a prime Jack Johnson in the "fight of the century" and then permanently retired. At 6' 3" and 225 lbs, Jeffries was regarded as the quickest and most powerful fighter ever seen during or before his era. He had great stamina and could withstand punishment, often going over 25 rounds in fights with 3 ounce gloves (no pillowfights here, folks). He took all comers and beat all the greats of his era. At one time, he offered to fight Fitzsimmons, Corbett, and Sharky in the same night, and they refused. After his fight against Jeffries, Jack Johnson said, "Jeffries is the greatest fighter of all time." The fact is that during his prime, nobody was ever as dominant and unbeatable as Jim Jeffries.

Nice write up but any top 10 that don't have Lennox Lewis is not a serious 10.

1. Impact upon the culture - Lennox had a huge impact on the UK as he was the champ that they craved. Unless your only looking at things from a US perspective- which is not the whole World- never has been.

Marciano; he is only in any top 10 cos he was white.The mafia and Al Weill got him his title.
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#113
Old 09-07-2007, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LondonRingRules View Post
** We're just going to have to disagree as to Holmes' effectiveness against a big strong 90s Foreman who showed good pace, offsetting jab, and mindboggling strength in punching and grappling. In short he either negates or has every advantage save youth.

Foreman's KO% in his comeback was 87% by the time they revived Moorer. His last 4 fights went to decisions after he turned 46 and had already achieved his goal, so I feel comfortable in repeating that he was KOing fighters at about the same rate. If you want to say he hung on to long and reduced his KO%, well, whatever. His final KO% was 84%, only down 5%, not a big deal to me.
The big deal is that you don't seem to be in grips with reality.

Prime Larry Holmes does beat the old, fat 90's Foreman.

You know your stuff LRR but you are the guy that laughed at Seer - who said Cotto would be champion. Guess what Seer was right- LRR was wrong.

WelshDevil
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#114
Old 09-07-2007, 04:57 PM
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Holyfield battled Foreman and Holmes both within a year of one another in the very early 90's. Big George was much closer to scoring a KO, and the fight was all-together much closer and more exciting (IMHO, it did win Ring's Round of the Year, btw). I think Foreman, even old Foreman, loses a close points fight to Prime Holmes, and that he would've owned an older Holmes..
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#115
Old 09-07-2007, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiley Hyena View Post
Consideration of history's top ten heavyweights cannot be based simply upon one's notion of who could beat who because any dominant heavyweight in his prime could beat any other dominant heavyweight in his prime on any given, or lucky, day.
The issue requires consideration of the following factors, with equal emphasis on each: 1. Impact upon the culture; 2. Impact upon the sport; 3. Length of championship reign; 4. Win/Loss record; 5. Strength of the competition of the subject's era; and 5. Overall talent.
Accordingly, history's top ten are:
10. Evander Holyfield. Undersized body but oversized heart, and one of the greatest chins in boxing history. In his prime, Holy could have competed with any fighter of any era. And, he handily whipped Tyson;
9. George Foreman. One of the most powerful punchers the sport has ever seen. Regained a belt in his 40s;
8. Larry Holmes. Length of reign and win/loss record place Holmes in the top ten despite a rather ordinary level of competition;
7. John L. Sullivan. The great bareknuckler who first popularized the fight game in the United States;
6. Jack Johnson. One of the greatest defensive fighters ever seen. He won the true "fight of the century" against the aging iron man, Jim Jeffries, thus crossing the cultural color line to the benefit of the sport and the country;
5. Jack Dempsey. The most ferocious fighter of the 20th century and America's first sports "superstar." Babe Ruth thought Dempsey was a god;
4. Rocky Marciano. Retired as undefeated champion. Enough said;
3. Muhammad Ali. Charismatic stylist and a great talent. He won multiple championships and undeniably left his mark on the culture and the sport;
2. Joe Louis. Longest championship reign in history. Hemingway said of Louis, "He was the greatest fighting machine that ever strapped on gloves."
1. James J. "The Boilermaker" Jeffries. In his prime, Jeffries was never beaten or even knocked down. He retired as the undefeated champion of the world. Six years later he came out of retirement for one fight only, and incurred his only loss to a prime Jack Johnson in the "fight of the century" and then permanently retired. At 6' 3" and 225 lbs, Jeffries was regarded as the quickest and most powerful fighter ever seen during or before his era. He had great stamina and could withstand punishment, often going over 25 rounds in fights with 3 ounce gloves (no pillowfights here, folks). He took all comers and beat all the greats of his era. At one time, he offered to fight Fitzsimmons, Corbett, and Sharky in the same night, and they refused. After his fight against Jeffries, Jack Johnson said, "Jeffries is the greatest fighter of all time." The fact is that during his prime, nobody was ever as dominant and unbeatable as Jim Jeffries.
You say John L. Sullivan at no.7 and you've given your criteria for selection as say equal emphasis must be placed on each, he did have impact on the culture, and the sport, but I'm not sure how impact on culture is criteria for all time great but taking them into account and his record which I think is something like 38-1-2 forget how many kos, which looks good but he didn't have many official world recognised title fights, and of the 38 wins he had 31 of his opponents had not won a fight and 30 of them had never fought before, so quality of opposition was hardly good was it, and he lost against the only quality boxer he came up against so he wasn't that talented either. While I think James J. Jeffries was a very good fighter to have him at no.1 is IMO stupid, but you are entitled to your opinion. I just can't comprehend how you haven't got the great Lennox Lewis in there, the impact he had especially in the u.k, unified the belts, 3 time champ, quality of oppostion was excellent considering the heavyweight division was never stroner with the exception of the 70's, he fought everyone there ever was to fight with the exception of bowe and moorer, and I think he would have beat them both, bowe certainly didn't want anything to do with him and moorer wouldn't have lasted 4 rounds, he beat every opponent he ever faced, avenging his 2 defeats, add his 3 reigns togeather and he reigned for nearly 10 years, beat the 2 other greats from his era and retired as champ, he was also ultra talented as he could do it all and had every punch in the book had speed and power and could adapt to different situations, and other than Ali,Holmes,Louis and Holyfield had more title fights than anyone else, surely that puts him into the top10, 3rd for me and certainly above the likes of Holyfield,John L. Sullivan,Jack Dempsey,James J. Jeffries,Jack Johnson,George Foreman (Who said Lewis was the greatest ever) and Rocky Marciano
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#116
Old 09-07-2007, 05:10 PM
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Lennox said he didn't fight a comebacking Foreman because as George will admit he didn't want to face Lennox and as Lennox said he "would have killed Foreman".
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#117
Old 09-07-2007, 05:29 PM
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Oh George did want to face Lewis. I remember after the Bowe-Holyfield l Lampley told Lewis who he may face soon and he mentioned Foreman, big George got excited because he wanted to. Also Lewis once said something like "That'd be like fighting my paps!".
Anyways, good top 10s. Also some new mentions I haven't seen many times. Jeffries might be underrated today.
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#118
Old 09-07-2007, 05:59 PM
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Yeah, unfortunately Jeffries is usually only remembered as "that white guy that lost to Jack Johnson". It's a pity: He was a good fighter.

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#119
Old 09-07-2007, 06:19 PM
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Default Wylie's reply to multiple responses

Thank you all for well considered responses, even those that disagree with my analysis. IN further reply, let me immediately say that Jeffries is most certainly underrated by today's enthusiasts, but that wasn't always the case. Just take a look at the pundits opinions even through the early 1960s. You might be very surprised at Jeffries' rankings. His top ranking held up consistently, even through the career of Joe Louis. Now that's impressive.
Secondly, as to the issue of Lennox Lewis: Yes, I would agree his impact on the culture of Britain has been very impressive. Let's face it, Lennox was a dominant heavyweight and he is one of my personal favorites, I don't care what nationality he hails from. To me, Lennox is the perfect combination of aggressiveness, intelligence, and class. Too aggressive to be a "gentleman" but absolutely no "thug." He is great.
Frankly, Lennox Lewis was very much a struggle in consideration of the ultimate list because I do respect and admire what he did as a boxer. But, it comes down to whether he should displace Evander Holyfield as number 10, as I explained before. Lennox cannot compete as a boxer of historical importance with the remaining top 9. Just take a moment to consider this. Only George Foreman remains slightly vulnerable to Lennox, and I mean only slightly. The fact that a prime Lennox has a good chance against a prime Foreman is irrelevant because of Foreman's stats and history making matches ie..the Rumble in the Jungle. Lennox cannot claim anything like that, even in his matches with Holyfield and Tyson. And more importantly, he did not REGAIN the title at a later time in his career. Holyfield and Foreman both did. However, I will concede to our British friend that the story on Lennox Lewis may not be over. I hope it is not. It is pretty clear that if Lennox did come back and regain the title, his historical status regarding Holyfield would have to be re-evaluated, and justly so.
Let's be honest with ourselves, neither Lennox, Holyfield, nor Mike Tyson hold the stature to seriously compete with anybody in the HISTORICAL ranking except for the number 10 spot. John L. Sullivan was instrumental to the history of boxing. It's irrelevant that the prime Mike Tyson probably could have whipped him in one of today's 12 round pillowfights. This apparent truth is a dilemma, and as I stated before, I can give and take with Lewis, Holyfield, and Tyson (and Joe Frazier) for the number 10 position. At this time, however, in my opinion Holyfield edges these other candidates because he did REGAIN the title. No matter how you look at it, that is an historical achievement.
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#120
Old 09-07-2007, 07:07 PM
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Yes, but Holyfield did it in a watered down world.. Frazier was THE man for four-five straight years during a pretty good time in the HW division.

I think Holyfield is in the top ten (below Frazier, 'tho) and I'll tell you why. He has the most wins against current/former world champs. Or, I'm pretty sure he does.. If he doesn't he has to at least be top 2/3 in that department.
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