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Old 03-31-2008, 04:02 PM
The Iron Man
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Nice list Asian Sensation, top four are the same as mine! only things i disagree with is Marciano being to hight, liston being in top 10 and tyson not. But thanks for taking the time to write it, its always good seeing new people post their list!
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Old 04-01-2008, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Asian Sensation View Post
I always find it challenging to come up with lists like these. When you talk about top 10, is it most talented, best career achievements, or is it arranged by if they had a round robin tournament, who would win the most times of the bunch.

Here is my list, which means nothing outside of my personal opinions and what I know of the fighters. I will include a sentence or two explaining why I put who where.

1. Muhammad Ali-I have him number one because he had a complete skill set and won his titles by beating the top heavyweights every time. As far as heavyweights, no one was superior in speed and technique. When his abilities began to fade, he won fights with heart and intangibles.

2. Joe Louis-A strong second, Louis was dominant but his championship defenses weren't short on bums. Can you blame him really, 25 defenses and it's hard to get Lennox Lewis everytime out. He had incredible power, will to win, and had a ton of heart. His chin and foot speed were his downfall.

3. Larry Holmes-A very underrated fighter, others say he was overrated. Holmes wasn't a huge puncher, but had balls galore and a good chin. His movement was exceptional and he could win fights with just his jab. Holmes was the consummate blue collar hard working fighter.

4. Jack Johnson-He fought the guys no one wanted to fight (In those days, they were called black people). Johnson earned his title shot the hard way, by fighting everyone and fighting them again if he had to. He was a cerebral fighter in a time of noncerebral fighting.

5. Rocky Marciano-Tough guy to categorize because he fought in an in between era and fought a lot of old guys in Moore, Walcott, and Charles. He was the only undefeated heavyweight champion, but he relied on his power to bail him out of tight jams where his technique fell short.

6. Lennox Lewis-He has risen steadily on mine and other's lists since his retirement because of what the division has become. He was big, hit hard, could box and defeated everyone who ever beat him in the ring convincingly.

7. George Foreman-Destroyed people even when he glanced them. Foreman was big, tough as nails, and took the title the first time in devastating fashion. He came back and beat a 25 year old Moorer 20 years after losing the title.

8. Sonny Liston-Who knows what would have happened had he gotten his title shot 3-4 years earlier like he should have. Nonetheless, he was a devastating puncher with a solid skill set that included one of the most ruthless jabs in boxing history. His two KOs of Floyd Patterson were fear inspiring to say the least.

9. Jack Dempsey-You have to look at what he did in his time for what it was, which was exciting brutal knockouts unlike anything people had seen before. Of course since then we've seen some pretty good ones too. Dempsey to his detriment had no idea what boxing skill was and it showed in his two fights with Gene Tunney. He could crack like an animal though and it got him through when he needed it to.

10. Evander Holyfield-No one's heart matched his. He gave us great fights and inspiring moments in the ring. He could box and move, like a little Larry Holmes, or he could go to war like he liked to. He wasn't a big puncher but he could wear you down. He had a chin of stone, an excellent left hook counter, and an unsurpassed will to win.
You are right, when you say these are difficult, and like you said it depends on the criteria you use. Not a bad list, but wasn't sure if your list was based on accomplishments or who would beat who or maybe a bit of both.
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:56 PM
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This was mine from another thread:

10. Lennox Lewis - He was the last to officially clean up the division, though his wins against all-time greats Holyfield, and Tyson are skewed, given their ages. He was a sound technical fighter, he had good power, and given his size, would have been formidable in any era. He was one of the few who actually got better with age. He fought some of his best fights in his 30's, which is extremely rare, especially for a heavyweight. This is a temporary placeholder at #10, however, as this spot changes more frequently for me than any other on the list. Many people would place Jack Johnson, or someone else from a vintage era here, which is completely respectable.

9. Jack Dempsey - One of the original true terrors. He was smaller than a lot of guys, but he tore them down like it was his job. Well...I guess it technically was. He was dominant in his era, and although he encountered one piece of kryptonite during the course of his career (Tunney), that can't erase one of the true greats from history's list.

8. Charles "Sonny" Liston - Perhaps the most feared fighter of the entire century, Liston tore his way to the top, avenging his only decision loss (Marshall), and destroying then heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson twice, in a total of two rounds. I don't rate him any higher than 8 for now, however, as he only successfully defended his title once, and then failed to splash back onto the scene. He was a fierce, freak of nature, with an incredible reach, and a jackhammer jab.

7. Mike Tyson - A perpetual buzzsaw at his best, a sad, sub-human quitter at his worst, "Iron" Mike was perhaps the single most exciting fighter in heavyweight history. He tore through the division on his way to the crown, decimating all, and leaving little to question when he swept the championship belts onto his shoulders as a mere boy amongst men. Truly, the last heavyweight to hold the undisputed crown for any significant length of time. Were it not for his odd personna and tragic private life, he could have been discussed much higher on many lists. He had rare physical talents, perhaps not seen in any other fighter; he possessed speed, power, and elusiveness in dangerous supply. Given how he turned out, however, this is the absolute highest I can rate him, and he tends to fluctuate on my list from positions as high as 7, and as low as 12.

6. Joe Frazier - The hardest working individual, period. The man didn't lift weights, he was small for a heavyweight, he was a converted lefty, he was awkward, and at times slow. "Smokin" Joe Frazier was a warrior, a true battler who brought 100% from the opening introductions to the final bell. Perhaps my favorite fighter of all-time, he simply got there by out-hustling his opponents. A man with a heart as big as the moon, he could have been the greatest, were he not overshadowed by two others from the same era.

5. George Foreman - I place the grillmaster in the middle of my list, because his accomplishments weren't amazing, having only successfully defended the title for two professional bouts, and containing the largest list of tomato cans in grocery store history. Even so, the man was an absolute house. He even put my #6 boxer to shame, by knocking him to the canvas half-a-dozen times in two rounds. When it seemed as though he was merely a power slugger who's career never truly got there, he comes back, after more than nine years away, and slugs his way to the top to win the belt 20 years after losing it! He showed heart, and tactical boxing skill; two qualities sorely lacking from his dominant prime.

4. Larry Holmes - The man won 48 consecutive fights, and defended the title for 7 years before finally succumbing to age and wear. Even so, he went on to have a fairly successful extended career lasting well into his 50's. Perhaps the best pure boxer, with the most complete game on the list, the "Easton Assassin" is often underrated and dismissed as a shadow to the fighters of the 60's and 70's. I know one thing's for sure: he would perhaps be the single most difficult opponent for anyone at any point in history. He could come back from devastating power (see: Shavers 1 & 2), turn a fight around in the midst of losing (see: Witherspoon), and deliver a combination of speed, power, courage, and stamina that many of his predecessors couldn't boast of containing in such quantities together.

3. Rocky Marciano - The only heavyweight champion to retire undefeated. 49-0. Nothing else needs to be said. It doesn't matter who he faced, or how sloppy he was getting there, the man simply won. It's all he knew how to do. He couldn't be put away, and he had stamina to punch through walls for 20+ rounds. I rate him higher than do many other boxing historians, despite his (seemingly) lackluster competition, but he has accomplished something that may never happen again. He did this while taking on all comers and top contenders of his era.

2. Muhammad Ali - In a head-to-head competition, Ali beats nearly everyone on this list without too much trouble. Given the awkward style matchup, I'd say that he easily handles #1 & #3. This isn't a vs. list, however; it's the greatest champions. As a champion, he was superb. It's a shame that most of his time as champ was spent when his gifts of speed, fluidity, and elusiveness were gone. There is no doubt that Ali has had the biggest impact on the sport, and on particular groups of cultural society in America. "The Greatest" was taken from the sport during his prime years. Some would say it was a judgment for speaking out against the One True God, while others would claim that the government was out to get him. Whatever the case, he still overcame the loss of his swift feet to outsmart, and outwill his way back to the top, 10 years after accomplishing it the first time. He has left us with some of the best, and perhaps the most memorable moments in sports history.

1. Joe Louis - He defended the title 25 times over the course of a 12-year stretch. He avenged his first loss in the most impressive fashion seen before or since. He was sound in all aspects of the game. To have a "prime" last as long as he did is unfathomable by today's standards. He was simply the best, for the longest period of time, and didn't truly suffer a loss except while he was green (which he avenged in brutal fashion), and again, while he was well beyond his best years against Ezzard Charles and Rocky Marciano. Those names are hardly the tags of a couple of bums or journeymen. Joe Louis even took 4 years off to serve his country, and he still returned in very impressive fashion. The man was the most complete fighter in heavyweight history. The "Brown Bomber" loved the sport of boxing, and aided in bringing it to the forefront of all sports. Even though he would match up poorly to my #2, his accomplishments inside and outside of the ring are more than enough to earn him the #1 spot, on my list of the greatest heavyweights of all-time.

Well, there you have it. A little dramatic, a little wishy-washy, but it's my current list. Stay tuned when I'll probably change it in three days time.


I have to say sir, that that is a truly brilliant list.

I concur beyond belief with it.
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:59 PM
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Is Rocky Marciano really the only unbeaten Heavyweight Champion of the World, EVER?
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Old 04-01-2008, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by hurricane72 View Post
You are right, when you say these are difficult, and like you said it depends on the criteria you use. Not a bad list, but wasn't sure if your list was based on accomplishments or who would beat who or maybe a bit of both.
A little of both, really. I put Liston in because I thought he'd beat a few of the top heavyweights of all time and had to drop Holyfield because he won the belt back so many times primarily because he lost the belt so many times. He had heart and balls, but he was fighting against his own limitations alot.
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Old 04-01-2008, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by hardmanbrit View Post
Is Rocky Marciano really the only unbeaten Heavyweight Champion of the World, EVER?
He is the only one who retired unbeaten and STAYED retired. Others have retired unbeaten but made ill-advised comebacks.
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Old 04-01-2008, 04:34 PM
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** Fine that you can put together a list, but you shouldn't make up nonsense.

I won't criticise your rankings, they are what they are, but you couldn't be more wrong about your statements on Ali and Dempsey.

Dempsey had the more complete skill set, not Ali. Ali didn't know how to bob and weave, fight inside, body punch. right hook. Seldom threw left hook, few uppercuts. Mostly jabs and straight rights with lots of foot movement in his youth, and just terrible ropa dope punishment in his waning years. Good at blocking some punches, but often only partial blocks and not as well skilled in slipping punches, decent but limited grappler.

Dempsey lost to a prime HOF great after 80+ known pro fights, an estimated100 non sanctioned bouts, and a 3 yr hiatus from the ring. Ali lost to what was essentially an amateur fighter with few skills and a weak chin after 60 fights.

When Ali came back from his 3 yr hiatus after just 29 bouts, he lost to Joe Frazier. Dempsey put up a better fight against Tunney and arguably won the 2nd fight plus knocked out the HOFer and future champ Sharkey in between the Tunney bouts.

Dempsey could've hung on and been a punching bag like Ali ended up and won his title back in the early 30s, but he retired with some dignity and all his health. His skill set and style required reflexes that he no longer possessed in abundance.

Kid, look, it's well known that Ali had an abundance of natural talent, heart, unique styles, and ringmanship, but his skill set was notoriously limited.
I'm glad you took the time to read my list and rebut, but this is my assessment. I couldn't imagine Dempsey being as successful as he was without the big punch. If he was an average puncher, his skill wouldn't be enough to carry him through. If you look at the Firpo fight, a better boxer would've been able to sidestep Firpo's rushes. I'm not badmouthing the guy, but I've never been overly impressed with him.
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Old 04-01-2008, 11:26 PM
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I couldn't imagine Dempsey being as successful as he was without the big punch. If he was an average puncher, his skill wouldn't be enough to carry him through. If you look at the Firpo fight, a better boxer would've been able to sidestep Firpo's rushes. I'm not badmouthing the guy, but I've never been overly impressed with him.
** That's fine kid, but Povetkin a modern Dempsey type style is only an average puncher and a top contender now.

If Ali didn't have the fast feet, his lack of skills would have left him an open target. At the end of the day, they can't help but be what they were.

I've certainly seen many more very unimpressive Ali bouts than Dempsey bouts. One shudders to think what moderns would think about Ali if all they had was Norton 1/2, Young, Cooper 1, and Spinks1/2 to look at.
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Old 04-02-2008, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Asian Sensation View Post
A little of both, really. I put Liston in because I thought he'd beat a few of the top heavyweights of all time and had to drop Holyfield because he won the belt back so many times primarily because he lost the belt so many times. He had heart and balls, but he was fighting against his own limitations alot.
I have Liston way down on accomplishment lists, but he rises when I think of who would beat who. I have Lennox Lewis really high on both lists, because accomplishment wise he achieved a lot, and ability wise he could do everything well and his size would be too much for the likes of a lot of the smaller heavyweights.

But as big of a fan of Lewis as I am, I try to remain objective. It's easy to pick him over a lot of fighters in history because he was so much bigger and the sport has moved on so much. I too am not that impressed with Dempsey, sure I admire him and he was exciting and very original with his style, but I disagree with LRR about his boxing ability. Tunney was possibly for his time one of the greatest regarding boxing ability and as tough as they come and a very underated fighter by todays historians.

Getting back to Lennox Lewis and modern fighters, it's very difficult when trying to compare eras and even accomplishments, because there are more belts available, which means it's easier to win a version of the title and defend it against let's say, not the most deserving of a title shot.

How would Lewis fair against Dempsey and Marciano, IMO he would have made short work of both of them, but even the sizes up, and put Lewis in the same era as Dempsey with no Emanuel Steward to train him and I can quite easily see a win for Dempsey with Lewis looking a big clumsey fighter.

But they fought in the eras they fought in and were what they were and that is all we can judge them on and Lewis is top4 on accomplishments as the facts alone state it, and he beat all of his eras heavyweights and avenged both his losses, and beat everyone he ever faced. So on accomplishemnts and who would beat who he stands above Holyfield and Tyson. And surely because of his size, speed, skill and power he beats 90% of the past champions. I can see him beating all of them on his day, but the same could be said for some of the other greats, they too could beat all the others on there day. The past champions that would have posed the biggest problems to Lewis would have been Ali,Louis,Holmes and Liston. Then there are three more that would have been tricky fights. Foreman,Tyson and Frazier all would have been really dangerous. As for the rest they were great in their time, but IMO were not technically good enough or big enough to trouble Lewis.

But it is good to fantasize and I believe had there only been one champion in today's time then Lewis would have won the title the way he should of by beating Riddick Bowe. Maybe he wouldn't have made so many overall defenses as he did or won the title 3 times, but I think he had the talent to do so. I also believe had there only been one champion, then he would have fought Tyson and Holyfield much earlier in his career. Would he have been remembered even greater than he currently is, who knows.

So to sum up, I believe Lewis to be overall on everything a top4 in the history of the heavyweights, but it's my opinion and what I believe. No one can say for certain if I'm right or wrong and we all have our own thoughts on the matter. But it's great to debate and reason with like minded boxing fans.

P.S. Good luck in your career, it is something I would love to do myself. You are very lucky to be doing something you love. Forget the ones who criticize you, most are jealous. Don't take anything in the dome seriously, it's just fun. Childish fun at that, but that's one of my faults maybe. Keep your enthuism for it, is my advice as it's a great quality of yours and shines through in your articles. Keep having fun doing what you love and thanks for joining in on the thread.
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Old 04-02-2008, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iron Man View Post
Nice list Asian Sensation, top four are the same as mine! only things i disagree with is Marciano being to hight, liston being in top 10 and tyson not. But thanks for taking the time to write it, its always good seeing new people post their list!
I agree, Tyson could be in the list but the problem is then everyone gets hung up on Tyson and you never get to the end of the discussion.
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