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or those of you that have watched it, you may have noticed that the ref does a very bad job in this as he allows Foreman to repeatedly get away with just shoving Joe away and pushing him to the side in order to set up his clubbing shots. Frazier actually has a fair degree of success in getting to Foreman early on and lands some decent left hooks and jabs. Foreman has trouble controlling range and keeping Frazier off him. With a different ref I think it would be interesting to see how Foreman wold have coped if he hadnt been allowed manhandle Frazier and repeadly shove him back with full on pushes. The ref should have addressed this early.
This brings me to my other point. It may seem bizzare to criticize Foreman in a fight where he blasted out such a high profile opponent - but Ive always been bothered by his tactics in this. Very little use of the jab, no real success at keeping Frazier at bay and rather untidy, wild punches. Frazier did most of his best work in close, so I would have expected Foreman to box and use his jab to set up his power shots. But crucially he seemed unable to do this and was allowed to get away with resorting to pushes and shoves followed by wild swings that left him prime to be caught square from a left hook - Frazier's marquee punch.
As it happened, Foreman's power and roughhousing was too much for Frazier but I do think it would have been interesting to see what would have happened with a different ref. As Ali showed, Foreman could be prone to punching himself out with his big swings and the drawback of having power is that you often don't get into later rounds. Frazier for me was reasonably successful at getting to Foreman early on made possible by Foreman neglecting the jab. Had it gone on for longer with a ref that wouldn't let Foreman away with his pushing I think it would have been interesting. Such was Foreman's power and Frazier's added fat, undertraining, and underestimating, that the result may well have been the same once he landed a big one but I do think the ref and his tactics made it far easier than it should/could have been.
That being said, Prime vs Prime it's a very different story. Win or lose, Frazier will do much better than he did in '73.
For me this is an over/under fight. Foreman would have to get Frazier early or Frazier would get him later. I remember the 1973-77 Foreman as a fighter who was less effective with each passing round. Some say he had bad stamina, some say it was his pacing. In this match up, the first 3 rounds are Foreman's, the next two are dangerous for Frazier, but Frazier should be fighting more evenly, after that the fight should be Frazier's. If the fight went into the 6th I don't think Foreman would make it to 15 or even 12.
The best Frazier was a bobbing weaving fighter who should be hard to hit by a ponderous swinger like Foreman. In addition, if Frazier could work Foreman's body in rounds 4 and 5, it should diminish Foreman's remaining power. I would pick Frazier but I would be nervous until the 6 or 7th round. Another thing that should be added, contrary to popular belief, Frazier could change his style.Frazier was known for his come forward style, but he didn't always just walk right into his opponents power range and try to beat them down. He countered, used his feet better and punched off the angles when pressured himself. He did this against Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena in their rematch. Against Foreman, Joe thought that he could just out-smart and out-bully the bully and instead he got bullied around himself.
Chuvalo pressured Frazier and backed him up a couple of times in the fight. What did Joe do? He backed up, jabbed, countered and used his right hand more, and in better condition, showed the head movement against Chuvalo that he didn't against Foreman. Plus the fact that Chuvalo wasn't allowed to turn the match into a wrestling contest like Mercante allowed Foreman to do against Frazier. Now we all no there's a distinct difference in punching power between Chuvalo and Foreman, but not a whole lot of difference strength wise.
This brings me to my other point. It may seem bizzare to criticize Foreman in a fight where he blasted out such a high profile opponent - but Ive always been bothered by his tactics in this. Very little use of the jab, no real success at keeping Frazier at bay and rather untidy, wild punches. Frazier did most of his best work in close, so I would have expected Foreman to box and use his jab to set up his power shots. But crucially he seemed unable to do this and was allowed to get away with resorting to pushes and shoves followed by wild swings that left him prime to be caught square from a left hook - Frazier's marquee punch.
As it happened, Foreman's power and roughhousing was too much for Frazier but I do think it would have been interesting to see what would have happened with a different ref. As Ali showed, Foreman could be prone to punching himself out with his big swings and the drawback of having power is that you often don't get into later rounds. Frazier for me was reasonably successful at getting to Foreman early on made possible by Foreman neglecting the jab. Had it gone on for longer with a ref that wouldn't let Foreman away with his pushing I think it would have been interesting. Such was Foreman's power and Frazier's added fat, undertraining, and underestimating, that the result may well have been the same once he landed a big one but I do think the ref and his tactics made it far easier than it should/could have been.
That being said, Prime vs Prime it's a very different story. Win or lose, Frazier will do much better than he did in '73.
For me this is an over/under fight. Foreman would have to get Frazier early or Frazier would get him later. I remember the 1973-77 Foreman as a fighter who was less effective with each passing round. Some say he had bad stamina, some say it was his pacing. In this match up, the first 3 rounds are Foreman's, the next two are dangerous for Frazier, but Frazier should be fighting more evenly, after that the fight should be Frazier's. If the fight went into the 6th I don't think Foreman would make it to 15 or even 12.
The best Frazier was a bobbing weaving fighter who should be hard to hit by a ponderous swinger like Foreman. In addition, if Frazier could work Foreman's body in rounds 4 and 5, it should diminish Foreman's remaining power. I would pick Frazier but I would be nervous until the 6 or 7th round. Another thing that should be added, contrary to popular belief, Frazier could change his style.Frazier was known for his come forward style, but he didn't always just walk right into his opponents power range and try to beat them down. He countered, used his feet better and punched off the angles when pressured himself. He did this against Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena in their rematch. Against Foreman, Joe thought that he could just out-smart and out-bully the bully and instead he got bullied around himself.
Chuvalo pressured Frazier and backed him up a couple of times in the fight. What did Joe do? He backed up, jabbed, countered and used his right hand more, and in better condition, showed the head movement against Chuvalo that he didn't against Foreman. Plus the fact that Chuvalo wasn't allowed to turn the match into a wrestling contest like Mercante allowed Foreman to do against Frazier. Now we all no there's a distinct difference in punching power between Chuvalo and Foreman, but not a whole lot of difference strength wise.
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