Does Tarver belong with the ATG greats?

[RubenSonny]

Meh, he may not be but I do believe it's argubale. JMO.

Atleast he fought Top ranked fighters during his reign(s). Wladimir is the same, really. Just resume is much better than Vitali's but he doesn't have the best resume either but he is certainly a HOF'er.

The likes of Joe Calzaghe genuinely fought Top 5 2 ranked fighters during his reign and he will get in.

Then again I actually don't really think he deserves to get in all that much either

Calzaghes resume is far superior to Vitali Klitschko. and Vitali has only beat fat burger boys and lost to the 2 best fighters he faced, never been champion, he is not a great and nothing he has done has been great.

ok now i cant tell if you are being serious lol

the men faced and the means by which they faced them do not compare


he didn't fight sub par - opposition

he fought other guys his size that were contenders. its not like the WW division wehere you can duck good fighters in hopes of fighting lesser fighters for more money in a sound business move.


guys of that size aren't treated like guys in higher weights with greater potentials for earnings are treated. calderon wasn't coddled in a manner even remotely resembling ottke.


there really aren't any sven ottke's at the minimumweights
there's no money in it.

Calderon was pretty much an Ottke at 105, he has a thin resume but its especially thin there, if you dispute this tell me how many contenders he beat there and all the contenders he beat in his whole career. There are also plenty of Ottke like fighters at the lower weights.

[IronDanHamza]

ok now i cant tell if you are being serious lol

the men faced and the means by which they faced them do not compare


he didn't fight sub par - opposition

he fought other guys his size that were contenders. its not like the WW division wehere you can duck good fighters in hopes of fighting lesser fighters for more money in a sound business move.


guys of that size aren't treated like guys in higher weights with greater potentials for earnings are treated. calderon wasn't coddled in a manner even remotely resembling ottke.


there really aren't any sven ottke's at the minimumweights
there's no money in it.

Tell me, how many Top fighters did Calderon beat his entire 12 defense reign at Minimumweight? How many in total?

Infact, how many Top 10 ranked fighters did he fight in his reign at Minimumweight?

Other than Cazares, by far the best wins of his career. How many ranked fighters did he fight during his reign at Jr Flyweight?

His career literally consists of sub par, mostly unranked opposition during a long, worthless title reign.

He fought like a handful of ranked fighters his entire career.

I can't see how the blatent resemblence to the likes of Sven Ottke and Johnny Nelson cannot be seen. All 3 of them have long title reigns consisting of almost no quality wins at all.

[New England]

Tell me, how many Top fighters did Calderon beat his entire 12 defense reign at Minimumweight? How many in total?

Infact, how many Top 10 ranked fighters did he fight in his reign at Minimumweight?

Other than Cazares, by far the best wins of his career. How many ranked fighters did he fight during his reign at Jr Flyweight?

His career literally consists of sub par, mostly unranked opposition during a long, worthless title reign.

He fought like a handful of ranked fighters his entire career.

I can't see how the blatent resemblence to the likes of Sven Ottke and Johnny Nelson cannot be seen. All 3 of them have long title reigns consisting of almost no quality wins at all.

sven ottke sucked dude. he literally sucked. he was not a good fighter. surely you aren't trying to tell me that you evaluate a fighters greatness without taking that into consideration.
so no, i'm not seeing the resemblance. they aren't even on the same planet. calderon was a very pure boxer.


to be fair to calderon and respect your points fighters generally do not choose who they fight. certainly not ones of calderon's weight and esteem.
many of the fighters he fought during his run at minimumweight were highly "ranked" fighters at one point or another, either before and sometimes after the time that they fought caldron. i never thought "damn, this guy is fighting cans," when watching his fights. in my ring monthly rankings when i was reading them during his run i generally recognized the names, and this was back when the ring was only "partial" toward certain areas of boxing and not outright owned by a promotor.

i'm not going go through each month and tell you what the guy was "ranked" according to the ring, the sanctioning bodies (generally more important in lower weight classes where guys genuinely need them to sell,) the press, or anybody else. if you'd like to you can have at it.

on a quick glance i saw that at minimumweight reyes, bustsos, cardenas (though he was coming off of a stoppage,) as names all ranked highly either before or after the time of their fights with calderon at the end of the year by the ring magazine (which is not always a terrific means of evaluation)


during his run at the top nobody was accusing him of being the next ottke.


he was the best minimumweight of his generation and he had two long runs at two weights
his size didn't allow for him to move up. the guy was tiny. virtually everybody he faced was bigger than he was. in terms of guys his size he's one of the best. healthy men are very rarely that small, nevermind those who are athletic enough to box.
he was in the fight of the year according again to ring magazine (i thought it was the second best fight of the year. marquez and katsidis ^^)
and he was on the p4p list in '08 and into '09

again
the guy was 5'0 and had a 63 inch reach. if it's possible, that's very small for a minimumweight, and toy sized for a light flyweight (think about how big giovanni segura is,)

call me old fashioned but i trust my eyes in the historical evaluation of a fighter more than anything else, especially for those that i've been able to see in their primes as active fighters.
he was a terrific boxer.
he beat cotto in the amateurs. (admittedly, age would have been a factor. i want to see it.)

i don't vote guys into the hall of fame
but i'll venture a guess that the guy's who do will vote him in there.


i understand your sentiments to a degree and everybody can have an opinion
but the guy is no sven ottke

[Pastrano]

sven ottke sucked dude. he literally sucked. he was not a good fighter. surely you aren't trying to tell me that you evaluate a fighters greatness without taking that into consideration.
so no, i'm not seeing the resemblance. they aren't even on the same planet. calderon was a very pure boxer.


to be fair to calderon and respect your points fighters generally do not choose who they fight. certainly not ones of calderon's weight and esteem.
many of the fighters he fought during his run at minimumweight were highly "ranked" fighters at one point or another, either before and sometimes after the time that they fought caldron. i never thought "damn, this guy is fighting cans," when watching his fights. in my ring monthly rankings when i was reading them during his run i generally recognized the names, and this was back when the ring was only "partial" toward certain areas of boxing and not outright owned by a promotor.

i'm not going go through each month and tell you what the guy was "ranked" according to the ring, the sanctioning bodies (generally more important in lower weight classes where guys genuinely need them to sell,) the press, or anybody else. if you'd like to you can have at it.

on a quick glance i saw that at minimumweight reyes, bustsos, cardenas (though he was coming off of a stoppage,) as names all ranked highly either before or after the time of their fights with calderon at the end of the year by the ring magazine (which is not always a terrific means of evaluation)


during his run at the top nobody was accusing him of being the next ottke.


he was the best minimumweight of his generation and he had two long runs at two weights
his size didn't allow for him to move up. the guy was tiny. virtually everybody he faced was bigger than he was. in terms of guys his size he's one of the best. healthy men are very rarely that small, nevermind those who are athletic enough to box.
he was in the fight of the year according again to ring magazine (i thought it was the second best fight of the year. marquez and katsidis ^^)
and he was on the p4p list in '08 and into '09

again
the guy was 5'0 and had a 63 inch reach. if it's possible, that's very small for a minimumweight, and toy sized for a light flyweight (think about how big giovanni segura is,)

call me old fashioned but i trust my eyes in the historical evaluation of a fighter more than anything else, especially for those that i've been able to see in their primes as active fighters.
he was a terrific boxer.
he beat cotto in the amateurs. (admittedly, age would have been a factor. i want to see it.)

i don't vote guys into the hall of fame
but i'll venture a guess that the guy's who do will vote him in there.


i understand your sentiments to a degree and everybody can have an opinion
but the guy is no sven ottke

I wouldnt say Ottke sucked exactly, he was just overated. The man had a good defence and a very tough chin, but thats about it. Zero power, zero speed.

[IronDanHamza]

sven ottke sucked dude. he literally sucked. he was not a good fighter. surely you aren't trying to tell me that you evaluate a fighters greatness without taking that into consideration.
so no, i'm not seeing the resemblance. they aren't even on the same planet. calderon was a very pure boxer.


to be fair to calderon and respect your points fighters generally do not choose who they fight. certainly not ones of calderon's weight and esteem.
many of the fighters he fought during his run at minimumweight were highly "ranked" fighters at one point or another, either before and sometimes after the time that they fought caldron. i never thought "damn, this guy is fighting cans," when watching his fights. in my ring monthly rankings when i was reading them during his run i generally recognized the names, and this was back when the ring was only "partial" toward certain areas of boxing and not outright owned by a promotor.

i'm not going go through each month and tell you what the guy was "ranked" according to the ring, the sanctioning bodies (generally more important in lower weight classes where guys genuinely need them to sell,) the press, or anybody else. if you'd like to you can have at it.

on a quick glance i saw that at minimumweight reyes, bustsos, cardenas (though he was coming off of a stoppage,) as names all ranked highly either before or after the time of their fights with calderon at the end of the year by the ring magazine (which is not always a terrific means of evaluation)


during his run at the top nobody was accusing him of being the next ottke.


he was the best minimumweight of his generation and he had two long runs at two weights
his size didn't allow for him to move up. the guy was tiny. virtually everybody he faced was bigger than he was. in terms of guys his size he's one of the best. healthy men are very rarely that small, nevermind those who are athletic enough to box.
he was in the fight of the year according again to ring magazine
and he was on the p4p list in '08 and into '09

again
the guy was 5'0 and had a 63 inch reach. if it's possible, that's very small for a minimumweight, and toy sized for a light flyweight (think about how big giovanni segura is,)

call me old fashioned but i trust my eyes in the historical evaluation of a fighter more than anything else, especially for those that i've been able to see in their primes as active fighters.
he was a terrific boxer.
he beat cotto in the amateurs. (admittedly, age would have been a factor. i want to see it.)

i don't vote guys into the hall of fame
but i'll venture a guess that the guy's who do will vote him in there.

I 'd at the Ottke thing. Genuinely laughed.

I agree Ottke was poor, very poor. And Calderon was a good fighter. But, in terms of competition, there genuinely is a blatent resemblence.

They weren't ranked. Never were, either.

Calderon fought like 3 or 4 ranked fighters his entire career. 5 at most. That includes both weight classes.

The vast majority of his defences were against unranked opposition. Let alone Top ranked opposition.

Other than Daniel Reyes and Issac Bustos and ? I can't even remember anyone else, is there anymore than those 2 at Minimumweight? That's all he beat.

Why didn't you think 'Damn, this guy is fighting cans'? when that's literally what he was doing most of the time.

I personally care more about what he did and who he beat as opposed to his size and his clear skills. And the fact is; his resume is very very very weak. And far from HOF worthy.

I used to think Calderon was a HOF'er, because I do like the guy, I like his style. But the more I think about, like I have been over the past year, atleast. I can't see how.

Atleast that's if we are going off resume an achievments. Which again, for Calderon, is very weak.

[RubenSonny]

Ottke fought more ranked comp

[Tiozzo]

Pound for pound.....not even close. At lightheavyweight.....he might make the top 25.

hell no

the division is too packed with greats

[New England]

I 'd at the Ottke thing. Genuinely laughed.

I agree Ottke was poor, very poor. And Calderon was a good fighter. But, in terms of competition, there genuinely is a blatent resemblence.

They weren't ranked. Never were, either.

Calderon fought like 3 or 4 ranked fighters his entire career. 5 at most. That includes both weight classes.

The vast majority of his defences were against unranked opposition. Let alone Top ranked opposition.

Other than Daniel Reyes and Issac Bustos and ? I can't even remember anyone else, is there anymore than those 2 at Minimumweight? That's all he beat.

Why didn't you think 'Damn, this guy is fighting cans'? when that's literally what he was doing most of the time.

I personally care more about what he did and who he beat as opposed to his size and his clear skills. And the fact is; his resume is very very very weak. And far from HOF worthy.

I used to think Calderon was a HOF'er, because I do like the guy, I like his style. But the more I think about, like I have been over the past year, atleast. I can't see how.

Atleast that's if we are going off resume an achievments. Which again, for Calderon, is very weak.

when discussing sven friggin ottke i'm always lauging and dying a little on the inside.
when one of the writers for bscene did a feature on why he was voting sven into the hall i contemplated blocking the news feed. seriously.

if anybody ever needs a good laugh dig that one up from the archives.

and on the bold
maybe it was the lack of punching power.

lol sorry ivan, that's only a joke.


they looked to be solid fighters. i'm not calling them ricardo lopez, but they weren't horrid to my eyes or so overmatched that they appeared to be simply padding his record.
lower weight guys generally come up less spoonfed than higher weights because they don't generate a ton of money and don't have long careers, so they have a rough time building a record.

in other words a young top 50 ranked minumumweight is going to likely be more tested and less padded than a top 50 WW, where you find spoonfed prospects
its too expensive to spoonfeed a minimumweight. they don't have a big payoff down the line. so they really cant be complete cans with records worthy of challenging for a world title.

[New England]

Ottke fought more ranked comp

with all respect if that's all you care about you are missing the point of the distinction i'm trying to make


and caldron also fought three of his biggest names twice (think "ranked," if it helps. mayol was rebuilding when he faced caldron, but got ranked when he earned the TD. he also went on to win a world title against edgar sosa, a solid fighter, in what i believe was his next fight)

[jabsRstiff]

Wow, someone sure pulled a thread topic/question out of their ass!

You have got to be kidding us with this....