Duran vs Toney

[wmute]

** Look, I don't deny that Toney had skills, but let's face facts here, he was an alphabet champ at the start of the new 4 ABC org era who was gifted with quite of few close and disputed calls early on. The skill level advantage attributed to him is simply not evident against prime top operators.

And, no, he did not "break Nunn down." He barely landed any punches on Nunn until the last two rounds. What he did was put pressure on Nunn's own lack of committment to training which sees him running out of gas which exposes his seldom tested jaw. It's the best prime "name" victory save perhaps the Jirov win that Toney has, but he was shipped plenty of punishment in those bouts, certainly more than he returned to Nunn and at least near par with Jirov.

In otherwords, it was his rock chin that won him those bouts which is fine, but give it up on all these old school superiority claims. Jirov's supporters don't brag about his limited defense. Toney's a good, tough, decently skilled fighter limited by his conditioning and mental laziness that sees him up and down in an uneven career.

Now I'm not frothing over anyone picking Toney over Duran. I'm pleased as punch to be able to contrast a very underrated lost in the wilderness phase of Duran in what should have been the winter of his career. I've studied the attributes he still had, and at 160 he seems to have recovered his fire and zest because he no longer had to worry about weight and could concentrate on conditioning and fighting.

I'd like to see the Sims fight to make a further evaluation. I've seen the Leonard fight and feel he was jobbed on the scoring as all Leonard did was spoil. Duran should've been in better running shape for the bout and could've done more, but maybe Leonard had exposed his weakness of not wanting to hunt down elusive fighters late in his career, so I won't really argue with the decision, just the nature of the scoring.

In which case Leonard would also outpoint Toney by a wider UD since Toney is slower afoot as would Hearns.

All I've ever asked of Toney supporters is proof of his wide class over a decent prime opponent, and the best they can come up with is a clearly past it Barkley?

C'mon fellas, Duran has an excuse of being well out of his weight class approaching 90 fights of a storied career. Toney is supposed to be in his prime. Why the draws, splits, majorities and blatant robbery?

Where's the beef boys? Is it all Burger King with Toney?

London, London... so at the end of the day there is some **** stirring going on here. That is what I infer form your words. All good as far as I am concerned.

Anyways, I can definitely see some of your points on Toney. And he is not on Duran's level. I agree with this.

However, *by today's standards* (and this observation is key) is an incredibly skilled fighter, moreover endowed with a great fighting instinct. So yes he has a right to call himself old school.

And I simply cannot agree on him landing a sunday punch on Nunn or anything like that. He took punches, but was slipping and rolling using his excellent upper body movement, and it is simply not true that everything happened in the last 2 rounds. All the big head shots and the pushing Nunn against the rope bs happened there, but Toney started putting the work that led there earlier in the fight.

I would not call Toney just an alphabet titlist at MW and CW, btw, but others have already picked on this.

[oldgringo]

You make good points here, but one point that caught my eye was, ''Still waiting lads for that seminal Toney prime opponent where he pitches a master class, showing all the skills attributed to him''

You say Toney never beat a ''Prime'' fighter. His win over Michael Nunn is a win over a prime fighter as your going to get.

Going into the fight Nunn had a 33-0 record, was current World Champion(IBF), had made 5 defences of his title. Had beaten Sumbu Kalambay,Iran Barkley,Donald Curry all world class fighters. He'd beat good contenders in Marlon Starling,Frank Tate, and Juan Domingo Roldan. And was a elite pound for pound fighter.

Toney tko's him in 11 rounds, in what a heated battle start to finish. That in my mind is a win over a ''Prime'' fighter, and it may not have been a masterclass, but it was a great win and he done it inside the distance.And he did show Heart, Toughness, Skill, and good finishing in this fight.

And Toney also has another win over a ''Prime'' fighter. The date was April 26 2003 were James Toney would produce some vintage stuff as he would defeat undefeated number #1 Cruiserweight Vassiliy Jirov. Going into this Jirov was 31-0 and was being really touted as something special , he was ruler of his weight division and had made 3 defences of his IBF title.

James comes out of this with a UD victory in what was a true up and down thriller. It was no masterclass, but a win over a world class fighter, who gave it his all. That fight i find took something deep inside out of Jirov and he was never the same. And again Toney showed lots of nice ''Vintage Old School'' moves in this epic battle, and showed toughness and lots of heart.

So you may not be the biggest Toney supporter in the world, and as i said you make some good points in your article's. But James Toney did beat fighters in their prime, and its pretty hard to take that away from him, but at the end of the day everyone is entitled to there own thoughts and views.

London, London... so at the end of the day there is some **** stirring going on here. That is what I infer form your words. All good as far as I am concerned.

Anyways, I can definitely see some of your points on Toney. And he is not on Duran's level. I agree with this.

However, *by today's standards* (and this observation is key) is an incredibly skilled fighter, moreover endowed with a great fighting instinct. So yes he has a right to call himself old school.

And I simply cannot agree on him landing a sunday punch on Nunn or anything like that. He took punches, but was slipping and rolling using his excellent upper body movement, and it is simply not true that everything happened in the last 2 rounds. All the big head shots and the pushing Nunn against the rope bs happened there, but Toney started putting the work that led there earlier in the fight.

I would not call Toney just an alphabet titlist at MW and CW, btw, but others have already picked on this.

Well said on both accounts.

[MWMerlino]

Toney could never fight at that pace. He could barely keep up with 40 yr old Mccallum who was laid back in his prime. Tiberi only picked his pockets more than a hundred times with no payback..

Toney doesn't fight at anyones pace besides his own. One of his best (and most overlooked) skills is slowing the fight down and controlling the pace almost every time. And against Barkley, where the pace wouldn't slow, he kept up and gave his best performance.

Duran was in superior physical condition against Hagler and Barkley, easily on punch output pace with his best prime efforts.

Like I say gents, a slick, high paced, fast handed waterbug like Duran would present major problems because he fights as well outside as inside and he would keep Toney off balance from outside and unable to set up inside.

I agree that a PRIME duran would give Toney problems but the version of Duran you talk about would not.

Why is that? What? You say no such footage exists because Toney never shows he can really outbox anyone at 160 or maintain a pace? According to compubox, which I don't trust, but at these low figures, moving up to face Barkley, his last 3 fight round punch average was 23 landed of 66 thrown against Dewitt, McCallum, and Stackhouse. These are on paper, vastly overmatched opponents..

Once again, Toney has only ever been OUTBOXED (skill wise) by RJJ. His losses have always happened because of poor conditioning. Also, I sense that you do not fully understand his boxing style. Toney's punch output depends on the style of opponent in front of him and in order to go the full 12 (which Toney always does) he will use his superior skill to slow the fight down and counter punch. It would be interesting to see the punch output of his opponents in those same rounds.

Duran eats up lazy fighters and Toney was a lazy fighter at 160 no matter how you slice it.

Funny because Duran quit against SRL in the second fight after blowing up in weight and partying and having to cut weight. In this respect he and Toney are quite alike.

[MWMerlino]

And just to add, I am quite positive that Toney holds the record for the fighter who has landed over 300 punches in a fight more than any other fighter in history. If anyone else knows off the top of their head let it be known, I'll go fact check this.

[Jim Jeffries]

And just to add, I am quite positive that Toney holds the record for the fighter who has landed over 300 punches in a fight more than any other fighter in history. If anyone else knows off the top of their head let it be known, I'll go fact check this.

Looks like Toney is 7th on the list in championship fights with 468 landed against Glenn Wolfe at 160, 17 years ago. He appears to be the only one that landed over 400 in 4 different fights though, with Sweet Pea and Meldrick Taylor next with 3.

http://www.compuboxonline.com/recordbook.php

[LondonRingRules]

So you may not be the biggest Toney supporter in the world, and as i said you make some good points in your article's. But James Toney did beat fighters in their prime, and its pretty hard to take that away from him, but at the end of the day everyone is entitled to there own thoughts and views.

** Never tried to take the Jirov and Nunn fights away from him, so evidently you missed the point of this article.

As mentioned, never claimed he was unskilled, just that his alleged skill levels and superiority are highly overstated. I gave examples of uneven and even poor performance against overmatched fighters, and simply requested a single fight where he shows wide class over a prime opponent using those skills.

Jirov was competitive where he took plenty of punches. Some might argue that Jirov should've at least even in scoring prior to the KD which comprehensively seals the fight for JT in the 12th rd.

Nunn completely outclassed him in the ring and on the cards prior to being knocked out. Great victories, just not the wide masterclass type performance I am looking for.

As far as the comphoax record book, Calzaghe set a record with something near 1000 punches landed on Lacy of near 1300 thrown, so comphoax ain't the only game in town any more. At any rate, any body needing the assistance of some hungover bouncers punching up hand gameboy controllers need to find a new hobby. Typically comphoax numbers are run up on hapless overmatched opponents, with only few exceptions. Glenn Wolfe a fringe of a fringe contender at best, the only 400+ punch fight Toney had at 160 which is the weight I'm matching him against Duran.

Toney is a better fighter at 168 than he was at 160, but then his comp is generally inferior there, so that may be misleading because he reverts to uneven performances when he moves to LH, pretty much damning the claim that he was tight at 168. Really didn't do that much at cruiser and not much at heavy. His legend rests on Nunn, Jirov, two possible HOFers, and a well past it UnHoly One.

In short, I'm willing to give him credit, just not as much as claimed and smart money would take the odds on Duran outworking and out thinking him at 160.

[LondonRingRules]

Once again, Toney has only ever been OUTBOXED (skill wise) by RJJ. His losses have always happened because of poor conditioning. Also, I sense that you do not fully understand his boxing style. Toney's punch output depends on the style of opponent in front of him and in order to go the full 12 (which Toney always does) he will use his superior skill to slow the fight down and counter punch. It would be interesting to see the punch output of his opponents in those same rounds.

Funny because Duran quit against SRL in the second fight after blowing up in weight and partying and having to cut weight. In this respect he and Toney are quite alike.

** Funny, but Nunn comprehensively outboxed him and Tiberi utterly clowns him before Roy ever got his chance.

Duran properly takes a great deal of stick for quitting the 2nd Leonard fight, it ruined the next few years of his career which had already seen him in many more and much tougher fights against tougher comp than JT could ever dream of.

Don't compare a thoroughbred to a mule and you won't have your boy suffer so in comparison.

[MarkScott]

Interesting since Duran did beat Barkely. But Toney too much at that weight for Duran.

http://www.amazon.com/Joe-Gans-Biogr...9462188&sr=1-1

[phallus]

** Funny, but Nunn comprehensively outboxed him and Tiberi utterly clowns him before Roy ever got his chance.

Duran properly takes a great deal of stick for quitting the 2nd Leonard fight, it ruined the next few years of his career which had already seen him in many more and much tougher fights against tougher comp than JT could ever dream of.

Don't compare a thoroughbred to a mule and you won't have your boy suffer so in comparison.

an overweight duran is nothing like RJJ or even dave tiberi, even the weight drained 160 lb toney would make old roberto quit. speed/slick boxers or hard punching hw's have toney's number, not roberto duran

[LondonRingRules]

an overweight duran is nothing like RJJ or even dave tiberi, even the weight drained 160 lb toney would make old roberto quit. speed/slick boxers or hard punching hw's have toney's number, not roberto duran

** Sweet lad, Duran at 160 moves faster than Toney can think.

Here's a treat for all of you. This guy is a Toney fan and posting obscure Toney fights. Here's JT in his 4th fight against James Gumbo Fernandez of New Orleans Gumbo circuit way.

Gumbo was 3-1, 1 KO for the fight to Toney's 4-0, 4 KO and finished 6-15-1, 3 KO and 6 LTKO on the gumbo circuirt around Louisiana way.

JT at 161, 20 yrs old for the fight. Man, I was a soft college student at age 20 and more ripped than JT. The guy he fights is ripped, but looks like Tarzan and fights like Jane with Leon's glass jaw unfortunately.

You tell me how anyone not calling himself butterbean can put 80 extra lbs on like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUj33...e=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97g00...e=channel_page