Natural ability or You Can Train For. What do you think?

[greynotsoold]

As a boxing trainer, there are no doubt abilities that you are born with. Three most prominent are power, speed and chin.

I don't have a set time table for kids to start sparring or get them their first amateur fight. Some can take as little as 4-6 months, some take 2 years until I feel they are ready.

All of that is because some kids figure things out faster than others. You can learn certain things but you can't teach certain things either.

You cannot teach a kid to have 1 punch KO power. You can't teach a kid to be as fast as Meldrick Taylor. You can't teach a kid to have the heart and chin of Antonio Margarito.

Those things you are born with.

I do not believe that heart and chin are teachable, but I do believe that they can be improved. To the extent that such things are affected by your confidence in yourself, your ability, and your conditioning. I have found that, especially when training young guys in the 13, 14, 15 range, confidence is a big thing. A young man that is willing to pack it in and give up because he does not believe in himself can do a lot more if he knows that somebody else believes in him. Over time that belief becomes his own.
Speed is the hardest thing to teach. You can shorten his punches, improve technique, etc...But speed in and of itself can be a curse, if you let it become a substitute for becoming a good fighter. That happened to taylor, and everybody will either fight a guy that knows how to fight and negate speed, or a guy that is just as fast but does more otherwise. Timing trumps speed most times.
The truest thing is that everybody learns at a different pace and is ready at different times, but add this. EVERYBODY sticks at some place in the learning process. With every fighter, everybody that ever puts on gloves, there is a sticking point. With some guys it can be real subtle- those that seem to be able to "do it all." But every fighter has his sticking point. That is why there has never been a perfect fighter.
Finally, every fighter has one punch power. A guy that spends hundreds, if not thousands of hours, hitting things can take you out at any time if he hits you right. Conversley, very few are able to implement that skill. George Foreman is by and large considered one of boxings 'one punch hitters', maybe him and earnie Shavers, but I bet you Ricardo lopez has more legitimate one punch kos than the two of them put together. Because that skill is far more related to timing, the ability to set up that one shot, than it is to sheer power. And you CAN teach those things.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

[QUOTE]

I do not believe that heart and chin are teachable, but I do believe that they can be improved. To the extent that such things are affected by your confidence in yourself, your ability, and your conditioning. I have found that, especially when training young guys in the 13, 14, 15 range, confidence is a big thing. A young man that is willing to pack it in and give up because he does not believe in himself can do a lot more if he knows that somebody else believes in him. Over time that belief becomes his own.

Well, yes and no..

Confidence is important, there's no doubt about that but I also know in 5 minutes if a kid is made for this sport of he's not. You can have all the confidence in the world and once you get hit, there's a decision that is made. Either you want to do this or you don't. Now winning, training properly and being in great shape also brings confidence but you do have to have some self confidence that is there to begin with.

Speed is the hardest thing to teach. You can shorten his punches, improve technique, etc...But speed in and of itself can be a curse, if you let it become a substitute for becoming a good fighter. That happened to taylor, and everybody will either fight a guy that knows how to fight and negate speed, or a guy that is just as fast but does more otherwise. Timing trumps speed most times.

Speed can be taught, as can power. You can make a fighter faster, and hit harder, what I'm talking about is that elite power and speed. Those things you are born with. Why is it that Usain Bolt is faster than any other human being on the planet? Is because he trains harder? Because he doesn't, he's just born to run really fast.

The truest thing is that everybody learns at a different pace and is ready at different times, but add this. EVERYBODY sticks at some place in the learning process. With every fighter, everybody that ever puts on gloves, there is a sticking point. With some guys it can be real subtle- those that seem to be able to "do it all." But every fighter has his sticking point. That is why there has never been a perfect fighter.

I agree but I do think it has a lot to do with natural ability. Some kids can get footwork down really fast, some can understand defense really well. There are kids I put in the ring, and they just know how to fight. It's hard to explain but there are naturals out there.

Finally, every fighter has one punch power. A guy that spends hundreds, if not thousands of hours, hitting things can take you out at any time if he hits you right. Conversley, very few are able to implement that skill. George Foreman is by and large considered one of boxings 'one punch hitters', maybe him and earnie Shavers, but I bet you Ricardo lopez has more legitimate one punch kos than the two of them put together. Because that skill is far more related to timing, the ability to set up that one shot, than it is to sheer power. And you CAN teach those things.

I disagree, if that was the case, then fighters like Paulie Malignaggi would have many more KO's. He doesn't because he can't punch with that amount of force to consistently knock a person out. George Foreman for example, can touch you at any time and put you to sleep. I think KO's happen for two reason, first off you get hit with punches you don't see and that KO's you.

Second, you hit so hard, that when you do land a flush, good shot that most likely would just be a good punch, it knocks people out. There are fighters like Julian Jackson for example that just hit with such force, that avg punches throughout the fight that shouldn't KO you, do.

[New England]

reflexes = well trained eyes............ Rockin'

i don't care how long he trains, alfredo angulo is never going to be as sharp as floyd mayweather.



i'm with cuaht on this one. chin, speed, and power are something you develop, but you do not teach.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

i don't care how long he trains, alfredo angulo is never going to be as sharp as floyd mayweather.



i'm with cuaht on this one. chin, speed, and power are something you develop, but you do not teach.

Damn, you said everything I said in a short sentence....I feel stupid.

[greynotsoold]

[QUOTE=Cuauhtémoc1520;13608167]

Well, yes and no..

Confidence is important, there's no doubt about that but I also know in 5 minutes if a kid is made for this sport of he's not. You can have all the confidence in the world and once you get hit, there's a decision that is made. Either you want to do this or you don't. Now winning, training properly and being in great shape also brings confidence but you do have to have some self confidence that is there to begin with.
that is all very true. The kids I liked to see come into the gym were the kids that kind of hung back but watched real close, maybe a little awkward and uncertain, but real willing. You learn to judge between flash confidence and a certainty of self ( which, to me, implies a willingness to learn). I am sure you know what I mean.


Speed can be taught, as can power. You can make a fighter faster, and hit harder, what I'm talking about is that elite power and speed. Those things you are born with. Why is it that Usain Bolt is faster than any other human being on the planet? Is because he trains harder? Because he doesn't, he's just born to run really fast.
Granted, and I never meant to debate this, some levels of any attribute are natural. But you can train enough, more than enough, of just about any attribute, given a suitable subject. You tailor the focus of your teaching to the learning abilities and attributes of your pupil.
The point I was trying to make is that being naturally gifted in a particular area is not always a blessing; if you favor one aspect of the game you neglect another.


I agree but I do think it has a lot to do with natural ability. Some kids can get footwork down really fast, some can understand defense really well. There are kids I put in the ring, and they just know how to fight. It's hard to explain but there are naturals out there.
I think we are saying about the same thing here.


I disagree, if that was the case, then fighters like Paulie Malignaggi would have many more KO's. He doesn't because he can't punch with that amount of force to consistently knock a person out. George Foreman for example, can touch you at any time and put you to sleep. I think KO's happen for two reason, first off you get hit with punches you don't see and that KO's you.

Second, you hit so hard, that when you do land a flush, good shot that most likely would just be a good punch, it knocks people out. There are fighters like Julian Jackson for example that just hit with such force, that avg punches throughout the fight that shouldn't KO you, do.

Malinaggi doesn't fight in a way that puts him in a spot to land ko punches. It is a timing and situational issue. There is no doubt in my mind that he hits hard enough to ko another fighter with one punch. Foreman 'could" touch you at any time and take you out...did he have any more clean one punch kos than Buddy McGirt? My point is that the correct application of the force, at the correct time, is as important as the force itself.
I cannot argue your second point...I remember the jackson/Collins fight years ago, and the Matthysse/Peterson fight more recently, when shots high on the head that seemed to glance ended fights. But you and have both seen such results from less dynamic punchers.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

[QUOTE=greynotsoold;13608314]

Malinaggi doesn't fight in a way that puts him in a spot to land ko punches. It is a timing and situational issue. There is no doubt in my mind that he hits hard enough to ko another fighter with one punch. Foreman 'could" touch you at any time and take you out...did he have any more clean one punch kos than Buddy McGirt? My point is that the correct application of the force, at the correct time, is as important as the force itself.
I cannot argue your second point...I remember the jackson/Collins fight years ago, and the Matthysse/Peterson fight more recently, when shots high on the head that seemed to glance ended fights. But you and have both seen such results from less dynamic punchers.

I disagree, Malignaggi has landed some serious bombs on fighters that were hurt but not KO'd and the second point is tied with the first. For example, the shot that Malignaggi landed on Juan Diaz that stunned him in their second fight, if Paulie was a harder puncher, that was a KO shot.

Look, there are just some guys that can hit harder than others. I don't want to pull the "I'm a trainer so I know" card but believe me, when I work mitts with a kid, I immediately know the kind of power they have. Even if they are not hitting full strength.

Now we also have to take chin into consideration. Why do some fighters take better shots than others? I don't know, but I don't think Malignaggi has just faced great chinned guys in his career. I do think the punches you don't see coming do hurt you and can KO you.

Like a sucker punch for example. If I hit when you are not looking, then I can more easily KO you, but how many boxers in a fight get hit with a shot they don"t see? Not many.

[greynotsoold]

[QUOTE=Cuauhtémoc1520;13608355]

I disagree, Malignaggi has landed some serious bombs on fighters that were hurt but not KO'd and the second point is tied with the first. For example, the shot that Malignaggi landed on Juan Diaz that stunned him in their second fight, if Paulie was a harder puncher, that was a KO shot.

Look, there are just some guys that can hit harder than others. I don't want to pull the "I'm a trainer so I know" card but believe me, when I work mitts with a kid, I immediately know the kind of power they have. Even if they are not hitting full strength.

Now we also have to take chin into consideration. Why do some fighters take better shots than others? I don't know, but I don't think Malignaggi has just faced great chinned guys in his career. I do think the punches you don't see coming do hurt you and can KO you.

Like a sucker punch for example. If I hit when you are not looking, then I can more easily KO you, but how many boxers in a fight get hit with a shot they don"t see? Not many.

I'm not arguing with you, just debating. I'm 48, started boxing when I was 10, teaching it at 27. But I've been out of it for 7 years since my body quit on me.

[SplitSecond]

conditioning is twice as important as any natural sht

you wont believe how strong a top athlete is

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

[QUOTE=greynotsoold;13608491]

I'm not arguing with you, just debating. I'm 48, started boxing when I was 10, teaching it at 27. But I've been out of it for 7 years since my body quit on me.

Naw man we are cool, I like intelligent debate. I understand what you are saying and do agree somewhat I'm just saying that there are dudes that just hit so hard naturally that they KO people.

It's weird because it has nothing to do with body build, muscles, none of that. It's just something they have, like being able to run really fast.

[{Pito}]

"Hard work beats talent if talent don't work hard"

So if you were to have talent AND work hard...oooweeee