Joe Frazier said the judges were paid off in the 2nd fight with Muhammad Ali

[frankenfrank]

Learn to read then learn about boxing, this is the post you learnt it from, correct?



Where in that post does it mention Dundee bringing the ropes with him?

Now would you like me to post some further links from Dundee etc about him attempting to tighten the ropes?

But Foreman did win the weigh in so it wasn't all bad

Now I see , 16 foot rings could not have fitting ropes.
All 16 foot rings in history had 20 foot rings' ropes on them , why should the Zaire ring be the exception ?

And yes , it was that post I learned it from.
Note it differs from Dundee's version on On The Ropes in which he claimed it was that damned heat that loosened them . I think it's where he admitted , intentionally or not , that he had access to the ropes themselves.

[GJC]

Now I see , 16 foot rings could not have fitting ropes.
All 16 foot rings in history had 20 foot rings' ropes on them , why should the Zaire ring be the exception ?

OK, lets try this slowly, did Dundee supply the ropes? Maybe you have a receipt for excess luggage for him? No?
So how about Zaire having zero experience putting on a boxing match messed up, think that could be a scenario?

And yes , it was that post I learned it from.
Note it differs from Dundee's version on On The Ropes in which he claimed it was that damned heat that loosened them . I think it's where he admitted , intentionally or not , that he had access to the ropes themselves.

OK step two, Dundee who probably being a veteran of 100s of boxing matches guessed that rather than it being incompetance to put 20 foot ropes on a 16 foot ring he assumed it was the heat that loosened them?
OK Dundee had access to the ropes so did Foreman's team and here's another little morsel they had access to each other's dressing room before the fight, they even could check the other fighters wrappings!!!

So to summarise:

1) I think you will concede that Dundee didn't put 20 foot ropes on a 16 foot ring?
2) You have zero proof that Dundee loosened the ropes and in fact in probability had he have loosed the already loose ropes chances are they would have been laying on the floor.
3) Considering that Dundee had no idea that Ali was going to do rope a dope and in fact spent most of the fight screaming at Ali to get off the ropes then we can assume that he didn't loosen the ropes as they would have given his fighter zero advantage.

OK as you are determined to cast a cloud on this victory as it proves beyond doubt that Ali would have easily tackled the BIG Klitshko brothers want to have a go with Budini Brown's allegations that Foreman was drugged?

[frankenfrank]

OK, lets try this slowly, did Dundee supply the ropes? Maybe you have a receipt for excess luggage for him? No?

I don't know about this. Why do you think you know ?

So how about Zaire having zero experience putting on a boxing match messed up, think that could be a scenario?

Why was the fight held in Zaire really ? not enough demand for the fight in America ? not even in the UK ?

OK step two, Dundee who probably being a veteran of 100s of boxing matches guessed that rather than being incompetant enough to put 20 foot ropes on a 16 foot ring it was the heat that loosened them?

Either someone loosened the ropes , or someone put unfit ropes , still it effected the outcome the critical way it did.

OK Dundee had access to the ropes so did Foreman's team and here's another little morsel they had access to each other's dressing room before the fight, they even could check the other fighters wrappings!!!

So to summarise:

1) I think you will concede that Dundee didn't put 20 foot ropes on a 20 foot ring?
2) You have zero proof that Dundee loosened the ropes and in fact in probability had he have loosed the already loose ropes chances are they would have been laying on the floor.

You mean 16 foot ring ? Dundee or someone else by either Dundee's or King's
"supervision" made it sure that the ropes will be loose , this way or another.

3) Considering that Dundee had no idea that Ali was going to do rope a dope and in fact spent most of the fight screaming at Ali to get off the ropes then we can assume that he didn't loosen the ropes as they would have given his fighter zero advantage.

Sure , this one could have won in court.

OK as you are determined to cast a cloud on this victory as it proves beyond doubt that Ali would have easily tackled the BIG Klitshko brothers want to have a go with Budini Brown's allegations that Foreman was drugged?

I don't know if Foreman was drugged or not. I do know how the ropes effected the fight , fact.

[GJC]

I don't know about this. Why do you think you know ?

OK what do you think was the most likely:
1) Someone from the WBC/WBA supplied/arranged the ropes, and even after putting on countless boxing matches made a mistake?
2) Angelo Dundee had to supply the ropes as Dick Sadler had agreed to supply the canvas?
3) Someone from the stadium in Zaire, who had no real experience of putting on a boxing event, supplied the ropes?

Why was the fight held in Zaire really ? not enough demand for the fight in America ? not even in the UK ?

"The event was one of Don King's first ventures as a professional boxing promoter. He managed to get both Ali and Foreman to sign separate contracts saying they would fight for him if he could get $5 million to be their pay. However, King did not have the money. So he began looking for an outside country to sponsor the event Zaire's president Mobutu Sésé Seko asked for the fight to be held in his country, eager for the publicity such a high-profile event would bring"
From wikipedia but accurate

Either someone loosened the ropes , or someone put unfit ropes , still it effected the outcome the critical way it did.

How critically it effected the outcome is a matter of opinion but lets say the ropes were loose the weather was humid and Ali adapted his game plan accordingly? That is cheating or being the smarter fighter?

You mean 16 foot ring ? Dundee or someone else by either Dundee's or King's
"supervision" made it sure that the ropes will be loose , this way or another.

My apologies 16 foot ring. So ticking it off you have zero proof that Dundee or anyone under his supervision loosened the ropes and in fact it was in Dundee's interest to tighten the ropes as he indeed did.
King was not the force in boxing then that he was now as it was his start and in all liklelyhood at the time the opinion was he would be broke after this promotion. Also it was in King's interest that Foreman won the fight as he knew that with Elijah Muhammad around he would never get his claws into Ali like he could potentially with Foreman.

Sure , this one could have won in court.

We agree or are you being ironic?

I don't know if Foreman was drugged or not. I do know how the ropes effected the fight , fact.

Foreman wasn't drugged and you have an opinion on how the ropes effected the fight not a fact. What you also do not have is any facts or indeed logical opinion that Ali or anyone in his camp loosened the ropes.

[StarshipTrooper]

OK what do you think was the most likely:
1) Someone from the WBC/WBA supplied/arranged the ropes, and even after putting on countless boxing matches made a mistake?
2) Angelo Dundee had to supply the ropes as Dick Sadler had agreed to supply the canvas?
3) Someone from the stadium in Zaire, who had no real experience of putting on a boxing event, supplied the ropes?

"The event was one of Don King's first ventures as a professional boxing promoter. He managed to get both Ali and Foreman to sign separate contracts saying they would fight for him if he could get $5 million to be their pay. However, King did not have the money. So he began looking for an outside country to sponsor the event Zaire's president Mobutu Sésé Seko asked for the fight to be held in his country, eager for the publicity such a high-profile event would bring"
From wikipedia but accurate

How critically it effected the outcome is a matter of opinion but lets say the ropes were loose the weather was humid and Ali adapted his game plan accordingly? That is cheating or being the smarter fighter?

My apologies 16 foot ring. So ticking it off you have zero proof that Dundee or anyone under his supervision loosened the ropes and in fact it was in Dundee's interest to tighten the ropes as he indeed did.
King was not the force in boxing then that he was now as it was his start and in all liklelyhood at the time the opinion was he would be broke after this promotion. Also it was in King's interest that Foreman won the fight as he knew that with Elijah Muhammad around he would never get his claws into Ali like he could potentially with Foreman.

We agree or are you being ironic?

Foreman wasn't drugged and you have an opinion on how the ropes effected the fight not a fact. What you also do not have is any facts or indeed logical opinion that Ali or anyone in his camp loosened the ropes.

Of course, he isn't really seeking to actually make sense: That isn't the goal! It's all about trying to discredit a fighter whom he dislikes because his personally favorites from recent years don't compare favorably to him.....hence his rabid support for MagicMan's smear thread about Ali

Poet

[CarlosG815]

I just heard an interview where Joe Frazier said that the judges were paid off in his 2nd fight against Muhammad Ali.Frazier said that Angelo Dundee and Ali's people and the black muslims paid off the judges.Frazier said that he won the fight and only the judges being paid off gave Muhammad Ali the victory.

Frazier also said that he was ahead after 14 rounds in the Trilla' in Manilla'.But that Ali's popularity influenced the judges.

I wonder what Smokin' Joe is smoking these days.

Joe's become quite a character in his old age. He is punch drunk and always talks conspiracy talk in interviews. At the time though he seemed to acknowledge his defeat and was more humble.

I think he just has loose marbles so you can't really take anything he says with more than a grain of salt nowadays.

[frankenfrank]

OK what do you think was the most likely:
1) Someone from the WBC/WBA supplied/arranged the ropes, and even after putting on countless boxing matches made a mistake?
2) Angelo Dundee had to supply the ropes as Dick Sadler had agreed to supply the canvas?
3) Someone from the stadium in Zaire, who had no real experience of putting on a boxing event, supplied the ropes?

An investigation should have been issued and the fight should have been declared a NC / ND.
You can't even see a criminal offense when it is right in front of you recorded in color and 480p.

"The event was one of Don King's first ventures as a professional boxing promoter. He managed to get both Ali and Foreman to sign separate contracts saying they would fight for him if he could get $5 million to be their pay. However, King did not have the money. So he began looking for an outside country to sponsor the event Zaire's president Mobutu Sésé Seko asked for the fight to be held in his country, eager for the publicity such a high-profile event would bring"
From wikipedia but accurate

So you explained this.
But what is the connection between the contracts and the sponsorship by Mobutu ?

How critically it effected the outcome is a matter of opinion but lets say the ropes were loose the weather was humid and Ali adapted his game plan accordingly? That is cheating or being the smarter fighter?

You mean if the ropes were tight ?
No other game plan could have worked for Ali for 15 rounds , he would have succumbed to the pressure long before , Foreman was no Frazier.

My apologies 16 foot ring. So ticking it off you have zero proof that Dundee or anyone under his supervision loosened the ropes and in fact it was in Dundee's interest to tighten the ropes as he indeed did.

Dundee's fairy tales and shouts during the fight do not weaken none of my claims , it was just a well executed criminal plan.

King was not the force in boxing then that he was now as it was his start and in all liklelyhood at the time the opinion was he would be broke after this promotion. Also it was in King's interest that Foreman won the fight as he knew that with Elijah Muhammad around he would never get his claws into Ali like he could potentially with Foreman.

Maybe you are true here , only maybe , even a rookie can commit successful crimes , and who knows King's entire interests except of himself ?

We agree or are you being ironic?

Was ironic.

Foreman wasn't drugged and you have an opinion on how the ropes effected the fight not a fact. What you also do not have is any facts or indeed logical opinion that Ali or anyone in his camp loosened the ropes.

Either someone from his camp , or someone hired or pursued by his camp.

[Toney616]

Joe's become quite a character in his old age. He is punch drunk and always talks conspiracy talk in interviews. At the time though he seemed to acknowledge his defeat and was more humble.

To the best of my knowledge Joe never accpted either of his defeats to Ali. You should read the ghosts of Manila by Mark Kram.

I think he just has loose marbles so you can't really take anything he says with more than a grain of salt nowadays.

I think his mental faculties are intact, its just the fact that he never forgave Ali for what he did to him.

[Toney616]

No other game plan could have worked for Ali for 15 rounds , he would have succumbed to the pressure long before , Foreman was no Frazier.

I take it you havent seen Hopkins vs Pavlik, Margarito vs Mosley or Foreman vs Qawi?

[GJC]

An investigation should have been issued and the fight should have been declared a NC / ND.
You can't even see a criminal offense when it is right in front of you recorded in color and 480p.

Criminal offense? Kind of getting a little excited there. Not too au fait on the laws of Zaire so not sure what kind of sentence would be handed down for it!

So you explained this.
But what is the connection between the contracts and the sponsorship by Mobutu ?

Mobutu had the money to put up front to secure Ali and Foreman's signatures on the contract which then led to the fight. King did not even have seed money to get the fight underway.

You mean if the ropes were tight ?
No other game plan could have worked for Ali for 15 rounds , he would have succumbed to the pressure long before , Foreman was no Frazier.

This is 100% hindsight no one would have predicted that this game plan would work so who is to say that something else wouldn't work.
Ali was no Frazier

Dundee's fairy tales and shouts during the fight do not weaken none of my claims , it was just a well executed criminal plan.

Criminal plan You are really revealing your agenda now! Dundee was there what he says has more than a ring of truth, the only fairy tales are your claims.

Maybe you are true here , only maybe , even a rookie can commit successful crimes , and who knows King's entire interests except of himself ?

King is the rookie? So from what you say you admit that it is unlikely that King's best interests were served by Ali winning? So how would it be a successful "crime"?

Was ironic.

You don't know enough to attempt irony. So you'll have to explain your point less.

Either someone from his camp , or someone hired or pursued by his camp.

OK, Budini Brown who claimed that Foreman was drugged to earn a few $$$ for a bottle of Bourbon didn't claim this. Dundee didn't loosen them so who do you have doing it? As for hiring someone, by now they would have spent that money and sold the story but we are still waiting for the "truth" to come out. "Pursued by his camp" you think they chased someone through the jungle to coerce them into loosening the ropes? Please elaborate your criminal case might come to fruition

Ali isn't in the best of health can we just pretend that Wlad would beat him because he is so BIG and not send Ali to prison?