Mike Tyson Vs Sonny Liston

[Benny Leonard]

The riposte to that, though, is that Tyson fought no one of Liston's calibre when he was Rooney trained let alone someone of Liston's calibre who had a huge reach advantage. It wasn't until Mike fought Lennox Lewis that it could be said that he had and in fairness to Tyson he was pretty much washed up by that point.

Poet

I can agree with that as far as the combination of the Liston's powerful long reaching jab mixed with his talents over Tyson's comeptition.


I thought Tucker at 6'5, 220+, 82 inch reach, and agile with skill...is still a decent look at what Tyson could do. However, Tucker hurt his right hand so it isn't a 100% accurate example as solidifying the statement because even with the Jab being Tucker's left hand, the right was part of his arsenal to keep an opponent off and think more.
Tucker is another one that let it all go. Something with those 80's Heavyweights.


I thought Lennox pawed with his jab too much like Holmes said.

Liston's jab was sharp and thunderous with the intention of hurting his opponent bad while knocking his opponents head back so that he could throw another punch behind it. But I understand what you are getting at.
Young Foreman, as seen in the Olympic Gold medal match, also had the same intention as Liston. I thought Foreman ditched that jab after Frazier and just thought he could blow people away with his other punches.
I really don't get why fighters don't remember to, in the words of Floyd Patterson, "Remember what got you there."

[StarshipTrooper]

I can agree with that as far as the combination of the Liston's powerful long reaching jab mixed with his talents over Tyson's comeptition.

I thought Tucker at 6'5, 220+, 82 inch reach, and agile with skill...is still a decent look at what Tyson could do. However, Tucker hurt his right hand so it isn't a 100% accurate example as solidifying the statement because even with the Jab being Tucker's left hand, the right was part of his arsenal to keep an opponent off and think more.
Tucker is another one that let it all go. Something with those 80's Heavyweights.

I think partially it's because Tucker went into survival mode after he broke his hand. That may well get you to the final bell (which in Tucker's case it did) but it isn't conducive to landing punches.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I think so poorly of '80s Heavyweights lol.

I thought Lennox pawed with his jab too much like Holmes said.

In fairness though really good Heavyweight jabs have been few and far between so when someone has an above average one it tends to stand out more.

I really don't get why fighters don't remember to, in the words of Floyd Patterson, "Remember what got you there."

Doesn't it, with some notable exceptions, always seem to be that way though?

Poet

[mickey malone]

The riposte to that, though, is that Tyson fought no one of Liston's calibre when he was Rooney trained let alone someone of Liston's calibre who had a huge reach advantage. It wasn't until Mike fought Lennox Lewis that it could be said that he had and in fairness to Tyson he was pretty much washed up by that point.

Poet

Maybe Tyson's opponents wern't as good as Liston, but those he did face were all the contenders of the day with whom he deposed of with effortless precision..
I find it difficult to remember him losing a round in title fights b4 Douglas..
When you consider the ease with which he won his fights, it could be suggested that Liston would have only extended him to pull out a career best performance..

[StarshipTrooper]

Maybe Tyson's opponents wern't as good as Liston, but those he did face were all the contenders of the day with whom he deposed of with effortless precision..
I find it difficult to remember him losing a round in title fights b4 Douglas..
When you consider the ease with which he won his fights, it could be suggested that Liston would have only extended him to pull out a career best performance..

They may have been the best available for the era but not all eras are equal. Strength of opposition ie. who you do it against counts for a lot. For lost rounds in title fights see Pinklon Thomas and Tony Tucker for the two that immediately pop into my head. As for how he won, well let's just say knockouts don't really impress me. A quick KO counts the same for me as a lopsided decision. Liston inflicted his share of brutal KOs I might add (see the Bethea and two Williams fights).

Poet

[Benny Leonard]

Reach is important but only if the guy with the bigger reach knows how to use it. A lot of the fighters who Tyson was fighting when with Rooney were not even landing a jab on Tyson. Tyson was fast but they should have landed something, only problem was they were beaten before they got in there and were in pure survival mode. No one tried to control the centre of the ring behind their jab.
My problem with Tyson is that as you point out he isn't going to win inside either so long range I have Liston favourite and inside too.
Remember Bonecrusher outstrengthed Tyson and nullified him on the inside and limited Tyson to one shot combos so to speak, Tyson isn't going to knock out Liston with one punch in my view.
Both have good chins so I don't see a fast fight either way so after around 8 rounds I think Liston's jabs are going to count big time.
It is not a dead cert, Tyson has a chance for sure, but I favour the 59 Liston strongly.

Some of that "being beaten before they got in there" also had a lot to do with Tyson. Read my Tyson quote below in my sig.


Bonecrusher wouldn't throw and he used his Height, Weight, and Reach to grab at Tyson.
Tyson's style is partly based on making you throw, making you miss, and then him countering. And this would repeat until the fighter decides to pack it in for the night because he can't land his own punches and Tyson is landing his.
Even when he goes straight for you early on, you can either cover up or fight back to get him off you and hope he stops...he still has a plan of action.
One of those fighters that I can't see Tyson doing that against is Foreman who would come right at you and push you around like you were a little kid. It would be like a Father vs. Son matchup with Foreman being the Father. Of course the Father can be caught and dropped...but I would put my money on the Father to get back up and waive his finger and give his son the belt treatment after.


Tyson needs you to throw. He is small compared to his opponents in that era so it takes more work to break down the Bigger fighters.
Tyson was actually lucky he had a body attack during that time that wore out his bigger opponents because it would have caught up to him in the mid-late rounds if he hadn't taken something away from them early on...which is why he did it.

[GJC]

Some of that "being beaten before they got in there" also had a lot to do with Tyson. Read my Tyson quote below in my sig.


Bonecrusher wouldn't throw and he used his Height, Weight, and Reach to grab at Tyson.
Tyson's style is partly based on making you throw, making you miss, and then him countering. And this would repeat until the fighter decides to pack it in for the night because he can't land his own punches and Tyson is landing his.
Even when he goes straight for you early on, you can either cover up or fight back to get him off you and hope he stops...he still has a plan of action.
One of those fighters that I can't see Tyson doing that against is Foreman who would come right at you and push you around like you were a little kid. It would be like a Father vs. Son matchup with Foreman being the Father. Of course the Father can be caught and dropped...but I would put my money on the Father to get back up and waive his finger and give his son the belt treatment after.


Tyson needs you to throw. He is small compared to his opponents in that era so it takes more work to break down the Bigger fighters.
Tyson was actually lucky he had a body attack during that time that wore out his bigger opponents because it would have caught up to him in the mid-late rounds if he hadn't taken something away from them early on...which is why he did it.

You make a good case for Tyson Benny and looking how opinion is divided it looks like this fight could well be a coin toss. I'm still putting my £1 on Liston though

[Ascended]

Crazy idiots son was to slow and easy to read nobody beat Mike who was that way they need to be fast of hand and use angles what's hard to understand he destroys son simple as that

[DeeMoney]

Crazy idiots son was to slow and easy to read nobody beat Mike who was that way they need to be fast of hand and use angles what's hard to understand he destroys son simple as that

From the posts I've read of yours, it seems your general argument in most cases is that the more modern, fighter is superior to the older fighter.

So I have to ask, is there any case where you feel a HOF fighter from an older generation is better, or would beat, a more modern fighter? For the sake of clarity, lets establish a 25 year distance from start of career, both HOF caliber, and obviously same weight class. Is there any instance in which you would favor the earlier fighter versus the more modern one?

[Ascended]

From the posts I've read of yours, it seems your general argument in most cases is that the more modern, fighter is superior to the older fighter.

So I have to ask, is there any case where you feel a HOF fighter from an older generation is better, or would beat, a more modern fighter? For the sake of clarity, lets establish a 25 year distance from start of career, both HOF caliber, and obviously same weight class. Is there any instance in which you would favor the earlier fighter versus the more modern one?

Not true only applies to pre 70s so from 70s afterwards yea its no reason to consider any pre 70s over anybody way to outdated in movements

And hof means nothing in a h2h match so dont know why you said that its a title nothing more

[DeeMoney]

Not true only applies to pre 70s so from 70s afterwards yea its no reason to consider any pre 70s over anybody way to outdated in movements

And hof means nothing in a h2h match so dont know why you said that its a title nothing more

Yes, I know HOF means nothing in a h2h matchup, i just used that to try and create a simplified baseline to standardize a variable (fighter ability).

Without it, you could have cited a pre 1970s champion level fighter beating a modern club level fighter. Pedantic as that may have been, just wanted to better focus the discussion.