Sonny Liston

[Killer Angel]

What if during the championship reign of Sonny Liston,there was no Muhammad Ali,how long do you think would he have held the Heavyweight Championship of the world?
Thanks.

[sonnyboyx2]

Liston would have held the title for around 6yrs until Joe Frazier would take it from him in the late 60s by which time Liston would have been nearly 40yrs old

[bojangles1987]

Liston would have held the title for around 6yrs until Joe Frazier would take it from him in the late 60s by which time Liston would have been nearly 40yrs old

Pretty much. There isn't anyone I can think of before Frazier that would be able to definitely beat Liston.

[McGrain]

Liston would have been a really, really tough fight for Frazier, even an older version. Frazier's people certainly weren't interested in meeting the former champion (though they had no need to).

Having said that, I don't think that Liston reigns as long as you guys. I think he was GOOD enough, but it's also true that he hit the bottle after Patterson I. The steam went out of him when he landed the title. Every fighter has his Everest, and once it's conquered they go on the slide - just a bit. When Liston lifted the title and came back to an empty airport, his heart went out of it a bit. I think he would might have lost it to someone silly.

Perhaps he would have won it back though.

[Sugarj]

It would probably be Joe Frazier.

Of course, Leotis Martin wasn't expected to beat Sonny, but he did in what 1969/70 so you couldn't rule out some other heavy handed guy like Quarry/Bonavena having a shot in the late sixties either.

If I'm honest though, without Ali in the picture Frazier would have probably met Liston in 1968.......and Liston was a horrible stylistic nightmare for Frazier. I'd probably slightly favour an older Liston here. In which case the mantle may well have gone to Leotis Martin anyway (terrific right hand!). I wouldn't favour Jimmy Ellis to do an 'Ali' on even an older Liston.

If not Martin..........maybe Sonny's former sparring partner George Foreman in 70/71?

[TheGreatA]

Perhaps we shouldn't count out Ernie Terrell, who was Liston's former sparring partner as was Leotis Martin. Like Martin, Terrell knew that Liston wasn't training like he used to in the mid/late 60's and would have a chance of scoring an upset by staying away and surviving for the first few rounds, although he probably wouldn't score a knockout.

[Obama]

Liston had seen such better days that he wouldn't even win a rematch with Eddie Machen.

Anyways Liston lost the title in '64, so lets check the Ring Ratings from that year:

Muhammad Ali, Champion
Sonny Liston
Floyd Patterson
Ernie Terrell
Cleveland Williams
George Chuvalo
Zora Folley
Karl Mildenberger
Roger Rischer
Eddie Machen
Doug Jones

What a sorry list of fighters. All the really good guys peaked in the 50s save Ali. Anyways Terrell also beats him. Zora Folley could also win a rematch, but he had a glass jaw so...only takes 1 punch to get him out of there again.

[Killer Angel]

By the way,when Liston fought Ali,was he still at his peak or was he on the way down already?Also,what if Liston kept himself in shape and did not have any vices,would there have been a different outcome with Liston's fight with Ali?
Thanks.

[Obama]

By the way,when Liston fought Ali,was he still at his peak or was he on the way down already?Also,what if Liston kept himself in shape and did not have any vices,would there have been a different outcome with Liston's fight with Ali?
Thanks.

Liston peaked in the late 50s. He was noticeably sliding after he won the damn title, age and not giving a damn anymore having everything to do with it. He still beat Glass Jaw Patterson in the rematch easily enough because Cus never taught Floyd the meaning of a backup plan.

As for does prime Liston beat Ali, well probably not. Ali had the right style, stick from long range and move. And he could dance. Great footwork would always be a problem for Liston.

[sonnyboyx2]

By the way,when Liston fought Ali,was he still at his peak or was he on the way down already?Also,what if Liston kept himself in shape and did not have any vices,would there have been a different outcome with Liston's fight with Ali?
Thanks.

not Liston or any other fighter would beat Cassius Clay