Could Folley have taken a dive VS Ali

[Val Head]

The Liston one really, really annoys me. People just repeat it ad nauseam without ever really checking it out. Liston did not, let me repeat that, DID NOT, take a dive. You can see it in slow-mo replays of the fight, which is always why I've considered so ****ing frustrating that people repeat he took a dive. It's right there in front of your goddamned face! You can see his whole head, neck and upper back spasm from the punch.

The only question is not whether he took a dive, but whether he was just too done in to get back up and fight on. When you've just been hit by such a punch though, I can see why he didn't get back up.

It was definitely no dive though. Just watch his upper back. It literally ripples with the power from the punch through his chin to neck to upper back. What more could you ask for? Just watch the video and never repeat that it was a dive again.


Not only that, if you are still too much of an unbeliever, just watch Ali's arm/bicep and man-boob. You can see the impact travel up his arm and quite truly travel through his man-boob from the top to the bottom from the impact. It's incredible! If you still think there was any dive after seeing it first hand, you have no hope.

Do someone people really think he missed? Tiozzo? Please don't tell me you do too?

Its obvious tht the Liston one was real and yes i noticed the ripple effect in normal motion and have argued this before but morons claim its fake

[Ray Corso]

Many times Ali was looking to drop a right hand over the jab especially with an opponent that "fell into him"! The jab comes out the head goes down slightly and the peripheral vision is eliminated. Joe Louis was always looking for this set up so the short right hand over the top of the jab was extremely effective again with your opponent stepping to you they have limited to no balance to be able to accept a punch on the jaw or to the temple.
When a fighter falls forward they are usually hurt badly, or their equilibrium is shaken to not allow them to recover in time to continue.
It looks to me that both Zora and Sonny suffered the same consequence from the same set up and punch. Ali had a great little right hand over the top he pronated it and when he added the shoulder it had snap to it. You could see Sonnys body roll from the effectiveness.
To be able to catch your opponent coming to you flush on the chin, jaw or temple is about as effective of a measure you can work for. Great punch! Ray

[Tiozzo]

The Liston one really, really annoys me. People just repeat it ad nauseam without ever really checking it out. Liston did not, let me repeat that, DID NOT, take a dive. You can see it in slow-mo replays of the fight, which is always why I've considered so ****ing frustrating that people repeat he took a dive. It's right there in front of your goddamned face! You can see his whole head, neck and upper back spasm from the punch.

The only question is not whether he took a dive, but whether he was just too done in to get back up and fight on. When you've just been hit by such a punch though, I can see why he didn't get back up.

It was definitely no dive though. Just watch his upper back. It literally ripples with the power from the punch through his chin to neck to upper back. What more could you ask for? Just watch the video and never repeat that it was a dive again.


Not only that, if you are still too much of an unbeliever, just watch Ali's arm/bicep and man-boob. You can see the impact travel up his arm and quite truly travel through his man-boob from the top to the bottom from the impact. It's incredible! If you still think there was any dive after seeing it first hand, you have no hope.

Do someone people really think he missed? Tiozzo? Please don't tell me you do too?

don't get excited friend... your opinion is not fact

cool down

phantom punch is not a good way to describe what happened, and I always knew Ali had landed, but not with a KO type punch

there are many reasons to believe Liston took a dive (or whatever you people call it)

- Liston took much better shots in the first fight, many of which in combos

- the punch doesn't look hard, though it lands, and even if it was hard enough to floor Liston taking into account that it is a pullcounter nicely executed that may have caught Liston by surprise and off balance, Liston rolling on his back with his eyes wide open is not really convincing, he should have been able to get up

-Ali over Liston ''Get up, nobody's going to believe this'' (Ali knew with how much power he connected with, reminds me of Vitali over Solis)

-many rumors/witnesses saying Liston was threatened by the powerful crew behind Ali during those years


I suggest you watch the documentary on Liston's life and career, his wife and other people involved believe/say Liston was threatened, scared and took a dive for that reason

[Tiozzo]

Many times Ali was looking to drop a right hand over the jab especially with an opponent that "fell into him"! The jab comes out the head goes down slightly and the peripheral vision is eliminated. Joe Louis was always looking for this set up so the short right hand over the top of the jab was extremely effective again with your opponent stepping to you they have limited to no balance to be able to accept a punch on the jaw or to the temple.
When a fighter falls forward they are usually hurt badly, or their equilibrium is shaken to not allow them to recover in time to continue.
It looks to me that both Zora and Sonny suffered the same consequence from the same set up and punch. Ali had a great little right hand over the top he pronated it and when he added the shoulder it had snap to it. You could see Sonnys body roll from the effectiveness.
To be able to catch your opponent coming to you flush on the chin, jaw or temple is about as effective of a measure you can work for. Great punch! Ray

I like the technical aspects you cover with this post