Who wants to see Deontay Wilder KTFO by a russian cruiserweight?

[D-MiZe]

All the potential great British heavyweights are playing darts.

[New England]

@New England.

Soccer is the most watched and most played sport in Europe.

Soccer athletes are the fastest athletes and most supremely conditioned from 147-175..

If the EPL and La Liga didn't steal so many of these WW - LHW..S Europe would dominate 147-175.

Europe got at least a dozen FLoyd Mayweather's .. you think Floyd's special? They are a dime a dozen in the Premier League. You think Ward is special?
They are a dime a dozen in the La Liga..
You lucky the rest of the world loves soccer or the entire 147-HW will be over runned by 'shirtless Ronaldos'

Theo Walcott would have boxed circles around Lil Midget Floyd.

you are missing the point of the argument. completely missing it.

when did this soccer playing demographic dominate those weight classes?

the HW demographic in america, that now plays football and basketball, once dominated the division.


you guys just don't like america. it is what it is.

[#1Assassin]

@New England.

Soccer is the most watched and most played sport in Europe.

Soccer athletes are the fastest athletes and most supremely conditioned from 147-175..

If the EPL and La Liga didn't steal so many of these WW - LHW..S Europe would dominate 147-175.

Europe got at least a dozen FLoyd Mayweather's .. you think Floyd's special? They are a dime a dozen in the Premier League. You think Ward is special?
They are a dime a dozen in the La Liga..
You lucky the rest of the world loves soccer or the entire 147-HW will be over runned by 'shirtless Ronaldos'

Theo Walcott would have boxed circles around Lil Midget Floyd.

you are so wrong.

soccer players arent that great athletes to begin with in addition to being very different kind of athletes than boxers.

i played soccer for like 8-9 years and lived for the sport at one point. but soccer players arent nearly as good athletes as fighters in general. maybe there is one or two guys that can match floyd or ward but dime a dozen? get serious.

like i said they are different athletes too, soccer players have strong legs and great stamina but they dont have the coordination, agility and reflexes boxers who trained since childhood developed. they are very well coordinated and agile athletes too (soccer players) but not on the level of fighters and they have no core strenght or upper body movement.

there is no sport that requires the all around athletisism boxing does, only sports that come close are track and field and basketball. saoccer players are well conditioned but not very athletic.

[New England]

This is always an interesting theory, there is probably something to it, but I wouldn't drag it too far. As far as the basketball player analogy is concerned, are we sure that they have the most conducive physique to be a heavyweight fighter? We have recent examples like Lewis, Wlad, and Vitali of 6'6 plus dominant heavyweights. But what about historically? They seem like sort of anomalous. Perhaps this is simply a reflection of the lack of talent, guys can get by with size and athleticism, whereas once they needed skill. Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes are each 6'3. Holyfield is listed 6'2 and a half at boxrec. Joe Frazier as 5'11 and a half. George Foreman, 6'3 and a half. Floyd Paterson, 6'0. Ken Norton, 6'3. Sonny Liston, 6'0 and a half. Joe Louis, 6'2.

I think that likely the big guys like Wilder are more so opportunists, capitalizing on a week landscape. Of course, big tall guys have been the recent norm, but historically they haven't been. Furthermore, heavyweights are generally less skilled today. Robert Hellenius is a good example, a guy with limited skill and physical ability, only size, who is nevertheless considered a contender.

I maintain, I don't think that 6'5 and above is really the ideal size for a heavyweight, except in some exceptional instances. Bowe was 6'5 for instance, and he was a good enough fighter. Lewis was highly skilled, although he was iced twice.

there is definitely something to the theory, and i am not the first to propose it. it's common sense, and something that it seen as credible among american boxing media.

talented american big men once boxed. now they play basketball and football. go to an american boxing gym and you won't find any HW. the talented kids are playing these sports and getting scholarships to go to top flight schools. no shots to the face are involved. it's a good deal.

size and reach is an advantage at HW, and it always has been. men are getting larger. in the past, the men who were that large were not athletic. they are very athletic today.

helenius is a poor example, as he has very little athletic quality. he'd look like a complete scrub in the NBA, even if he were born with a basketball in his hands. likewise with the NFL.

is it some coincedence that the HW today in the top 10 are mostly large?

fury, both klitsckos, price, pulev, arreola, are all over six four.

povetkin and haye are 6'2", and haye has very long arms.



the ideal size for a HW is as large as possible, while maintaining the athletic quality to be an effective boxer. being larger generally includes better power, better resistance to punches, longer range. it's easier to be bigger, but it's rare that men of that size in the past have had the athletic quality to box. every guy in the NBA has the athletic quality to box. they might not all be great, but they're almost all going to be better than a clumsy oaf like helenius if you put them in a gym when they're 12 years old



it's a very simple argument. it's based on the history of the division. you seem to be the only person in the thread who actually gets it.

[New England]

you are so wrong.

soccer players arent that great athletes to begin with in addition to being very different kind of athletes than boxers.

i played soccer for like 8-9 years and lived for the sport at one point. but soccer players arent nearly as good athletes as fighters in general. maybe there is one or two guys that can match floyd or ward but dime a dozen? get serious.

like i said they are different athletes too, soccer players have strong legs and great stamina but they dont have the coordination, agility and reflexes boxers who trained since childhood developed. they are very well coordinated and agile athletes too (soccer players) but not on the level of fighters and they have no core strenght or upper body movement.

there is no sport that requires the all around athletisism boxing does, only sports that come close are track and field and basketball. saoccer players are well conditioned but not very athletic.

i too played soccer for a good period of time. it's a fun sport.

i do think it's an athletic game, and that soccer players would make for good fighters if you put them in a gym at 12 years old. maravilla started at 20. not everybody is going to be maravilla martinez, but you get the idea. the guy has the best footwork i've ever seen in person (i was ringside for his fight with dzinziruk.)

the problem with the argument is that the soccer playing demographic never dominated boxing, while the american HW demographic, who know plays football and basketball, did.

[Drunken Cat]

there is definitely something to the theory, and i am not the first to propose it. it's common sense, and something that it seen as credible among american boxing media.

talented american big men once boxed. now they play basketball and football. go to an american boxing gym and you won't find any HW. the talented kids are playing these sports and getting scholarships to go to top flight schools. no shots to the face are involved. it's a good deal.

size and reach is an advantage at HW, and it always has been. men are getting larger. in the past, the men who were that large were not athletic. they are very athletic today.

helenius is a poor example, as he has very little athletic quality. he'd look like a complete scrub in the NBA, even if he were born with a basketball in his hands. likewise with the NFL.

is it some coincedence that the HW today in the top 10 are mostly large?

fury, both klitsckos, price, pulev, arreola, are all over six four.

povetkin and haye are 6'2", and haye has very long arms.



the ideal size for a HW is as large as possible, while maintaining the athletic quality to be an effective boxer. being larger generally includes better power, better resistance to punches, longer range. it's easier to be bigger, but it's rare that men of that size in the past have had the athletic quality to box. every guy in the NBA has the athletic quality to box. they might not all be great, but they're almost all going to be better than a clumsy oaf like helenius if you put them in a gym when they're 12 years old



it's a very simple argument. it's based on the history of the division. you seem to be the only person in the thread who actually gets it.

I know the theory you're talking about. I'm just not convinced that it is really that true. I can see a general decline in interest in boxing resulting in a decline in the number of participants, I'm just unconvinced of the notion that it is a case of big men being siphoned off to other sports. Especially in the case of basketball, when there have only ever been 4 heavyweight champions who were 6'5 and above (lineal: Wlad., Lewis, Briggs, and Bowe), whereas 6'5 and above is the norm for basketball. I don't think you can blame the other sports for the drought. However, given the low level of competition, big guys with limited boxing experience who are great athletes can come over from other sports and find success.

That is my opinion, basically. Just what I suspect.

[Drunken Cat]

One other thing that I have pointed out, it isn't just about shots to the face. Football players sustain every bit as much head trauma as boxers do. They suffer a range of other injuries as well, which boxers don't.

[Sparked_26]

i too played soccer for a good period of time. it's a fun sport.

i do think it's an athletic game, and that soccer players would make for good fighters if you put them in a gym at 12 years old. maravilla started at 20. not everybody is going to be maravilla martinez, but you get the idea. the guy has the best footwork i've ever seen in person (i was ringside for his fight with dzinziruk.)

the problem with the argument is that the soccer playing demographic never dominated boxing, while the american HW demographic, who know plays football and basketball, did.

There is truth in that really, the heavies football (soccer) players are never much more than cruiserweights.

I'd be interested to see an NBA player play a top level football match. He'd be crap obviously but it would interesting to see if he could physically run around for 90 minutes.

[Drunken Cat]

i too played soccer for a good period of time. it's a fun sport.

i do think it's an athletic game, and that soccer players would make for good fighters if you put them in a gym at 12 years old. maravilla started at 20. not everybody is going to be maravilla martinez, but you get the idea. the guy has the best footwork i've ever seen in person (i was ringside for his fight with dzinziruk.)

the problem with the argument is that the soccer playing demographic never dominated boxing, while the american HW demographic, who know plays football and basketball, did.

The falling off of American dominance of the heavyweight division coincides with the entry of Russians and Eastern Europeans which coincides with the collapse of communism and the entry into the pro ranks of Eastern Block fighters, who were banned from going pro before (as Cubans still are today).

That, and Lennox Lewis.

[D-MiZe]

Anyone who doesn't realise that America's heavyweights are competing elsewhere is an idiot. But by the same merit, that isn't the reason for European dominance. In an ideal world, the American heavyweight scene would still be going strong when the Eastern bloc fighters emerged but it is what it is.

Heavyweight won't be the only division Europe dominates in the near future...