How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Super_Lightweight]

The problem I have with submitting to God is that it can take away reason and logic if you take the bible for literal truth.

That's why you need the Holy Spirit to guide you. There is nothing wrong with taking many parts of the Bible literally. We can't pretend to always know 'better'. It depends on what verse we are discussing.

Tyson, you are reading way between the lines and whatever you want to into the text, bro. But ok.

when human beings get involved it get's all messed up and the real message is lost.

True, and you can say that about all systems and institutions on earth.

I'm not asking anyone to give Benny Hinn or Jim Jones a chance...only Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Fundamentalists have one thing right, even if many things wrong: Jesus is the truth. How that works out in an individual life is something we can talk about. I am in community with very devout and loving Christians and we disagree on stuff...politics, what it means to be a follower of the Way and a voter, gay marriage, race issues, importance of knowing Greek/Hebrew to understanding the Bible, etc.

But we agree on this: Jesus has the last say, and loves perfectly and we can trust him.

Falwell read the Bible, and he knows as well as anyone that to whom much is given, much is expected...wherever folks like him mess up, they will be treated justly by God...whatever that means exactly I don't know.

[tyson]

Tyson, you are reading way between the lines and whatever you want to into the text, bro. But ok.

Where am I reading way between the lines?

I read directly what the lines say. And I'm sorry, but the lines speak clearly of "gods", not a single God.
Well, atleast not in the original texts. The translated versions have many mis-translations, and I suspect they are not by accident.

But it's not only the Bible, it's all ancient books.

Srimad Bhagavatam:

"...tells of a demon race which invaded the three planetary systems.
Opposing the demons was the Hindu god Shiva, who possessed a powerful weapon that he fired at the enemy airships?? from his own"

Interestingly, this was just removed entirely from the book when they translated it. Why would that be?

"They come from a far country, from the end of heaven.. to destroy the whole land"
-Isaiah 13:3

I don't read between the lines, it speaks rather clearly in my opinion.

But according to the Old Testament, I will burn in hell because I work on Sundays, which is actually the wrong day of sabbath, because it was originally Saturday that was the Sabbath day.

What is interesting is that "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them"

Yet christians do this every day. I've never seen any church without a image of Jesus or something like that.

I'm sorry, but if you have prayed before Jesus on the cross, you're ****ed.
At least according to the Bible.

[tyson]

"You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods."

And what is this? Our all-loving God is demanding that we SERVE him?
What happened to free-will?

And why would he mention other gods if there were no other gods?


"Every action done so as to cling to God in communion of holiness, and thus achieve blessedness, is a true sacrifice." ?

Leviticus 20:9
If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.

Exodus 35:2
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and my life was preserved.”

Exodus 33:11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God.

(7) (Jesus speaking)
John 5:31 If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.

John 8:14 Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid.


See? Literally or not, it makes no sense.

[Gareth Ivanovic]

That's why you need the Holy Spirit to guide you. There is nothing wrong with taking many parts of the Bible literally. We can't pretend to always know 'better'. It depends on what verse we are discussing.

Tyson, you are reading way between the lines and whatever you want to into the text, bro. But ok.



True, and you can say that about all systems and institutions on earth.

I'm not asking anyone to give Benny Hinn or Jim Jones a chance...only Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Fundamentalists have one thing right, even if many things wrong: Jesus is the truth. How that works out in an individual life is something we can talk about. I am in community with very devout and loving Christians and we disagree on stuff...politics, what it means to be a follower of the Way and a voter, gay marriage, race issues, importance of knowing Greek/Hebrew to understanding the Bible, etc.

But we agree on this: Jesus has the last say, and loves perfectly and we can trust him.
Falwell read the Bible, and he knows as well as anyone that to whom much is given, much is expected...wherever folks like him mess up, they will be treated justly by God...whatever that means exactly I don't know.

To be honest I don't think I need the holy spirit to guide me. My parents, family, and good honest friends are what helps guide me. Because I can at least see and speak to those people and there's a two way conversation. With the holy spirit it's only a one way conversation unless you manifest something in your head.

For me Jesus was just a revolutionary that saw his people getting oppressed so he stood up and did something. So I don't look at him as the son of God. I feel other people made him into this supreme being to make what they say as being legitimate. His words and message were turned into the opinions of those who wrote them. So to me he doesn't have the last say because I think his message was lost a long time ago.

[The Noose]

That's why you need the Holy Spirit to guide you.




I'm not asking anyone to give Benny Hinn or Jim Jones a chance...only Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Fundamentalists have one thing right, even if many things wrong: Jesus is the truth. How that works out in an individual life is something we can talk about. I am in community with very devout and loving Christians and we disagree on stuff...politics, what it means to be a follower of the Way and a voter, gay marriage, race issues, importance of knowing Greek/Hebrew to understanding the Bible, etc.

But we agree on this: Jesus has the last say, and loves perfectly and we can trust him.

.

How does the Holy Spirit guide you? In what way?

What is 'TRUTH' if Christians cannot agree on all these matters?

U accept that Jesus has the last say, but what if on judgement day he says u misunderstood what it means to be Christian, and cannot enter heaven?
In the same way atheists will be judged for understanding how others make that leap of faith to achieve belief.

Doesnt it all come down to our individual understanding?

[j]

How does the Holy Spirit guide you? In what way?

What is 'TRUTH' if Christians cannot agree on all these matters?

U accept that Jesus has the last say, but what if on judgement day he says u misunderstood what it means to be Christian, and cannot enter heaven?
In the same way atheists will be judged for understanding how others make that leap of faith to achieve belief.

Doesnt it all come down to our individual understanding?

interpretation is how many versions of christianity came to be. different levels of understanding are how different spiritual paths came to be.

as i mentioned, christians have to have that father/son relationship.

christians are on one particular level. one i would equate with a kid's level of developement. kids usually believe in the boogeyman, don't have enough mental capacity to understand more advanced concepts, and need guidance and discipline.

when you get a little older, you start to question more and more as you get older. eventually you find that maybe your parents' way's are not the most efficient. or that the boogeyman doesn't exist as you had thought. you start to see your parents as fallible - not the superheros that you believed they were when you were a kid. hell, your parents are likely stuck in the dark ages compared to you. like they know what an internet worm is..... anyways, gradually, you develope an understanding based on your experience. some people develope higher levels of understanding than others.


so, personal developement and mental disposition seem to be major factors that determine what faith(if any at all) a person chooses or seems drawn to.



i, for example, am a taoist. taoism is essentially non religious. any belief or concept you can pick from taoism is something that can be demonstrated or experienced on some level. it(taoism) could be partially described as being the beggining and end of all religions and at the same time the goal of science. but it extends beyond both. it encompasses all veiw points, but is not limited to focusing on just one.



i noticed that super lightweight didn't really respond to my posts here. i would love to hear his take on this.

[Super_Lightweight]

How does the Holy Spirit guide you? In what way?

What is 'TRUTH' if Christians cannot agree on all these matters?

U accept that Jesus has the last say, but what if on judgement day he says u misunderstood what it means to be Christian, and cannot enter heaven?
In the same way atheists will be judged for understanding how others make that leap of faith to achieve belief.

Doesnt it all come down to our individual understanding?

And what is this? Our all-loving God is demanding that we SERVE him?
What happened to free-will?

Look around. Your argument, as I said, is silly. You know this to be true. I used to make these same arguments when I was an atheist. Look around...free will is still there. No one serves God except out of free will.

The Bible says we will be judged by what we know, not what we don't know. Interpret that how you wish but that seems fair to me.

but if you read the Bible and it says Jesus is THE way, truth and the life...well, that doesn't leave room for your assertion that everything is up for debate.

the fact that Christians can respectably disagree on some points is a good testament to them, not a detraction.

If we all agreed you guys would point the finger saying we are zombies and a cult. the double-standard here is laughable.

[Super_Lightweight]

Even by the standards of atheistic naturalism, we all 'need' a father.

Pigeonholing Christians in that way is silly.

[The Noose]

The Bible says we will be judged by what we know, not what we don't know. Interpret that how you wish but that seems fair to me.

but if you read the Bible and it says Jesus is THE way, truth and the life...well, that doesn't leave room for your assertion that everything is up for debate.

the fact that Christians can respectably disagree on some points is a good testament to them, not a detraction.

.

Most non-believrs say they dont believe in God, but they dont know if there is a God. Not that there is no God. So according to the Bible they will not be judged?

I think having points of view and debating faith (even within the same religion) is indeed a good thing, yet its the premise that there is a 'truth' that i find puzzling. A single path. An absolute agreement.

Jesus says he is THE way THE truth and THE life. But what exactly does that mean? It is very much up for debate.



If there is a God, and he is just and all knowing. Will he not understand how people have reached their own conclusions about their faith or lack of? And that many of these people werent rejecting or rebelling against God but simply failed to make that leap of faith, still managing to lead their lives with many of the values that Christians hold so highly.

[tyson]

Look around. Your argument, as I said, is silly. You know this to be true. I used to make these same arguments when I was an atheist. Look around...free will is still there. No one serves God except out of free will.

The Bible says we will be judged by what we know, not what we don't know. Interpret that how you wish but that seems fair to me.

but if you read the Bible and it says Jesus is THE way, truth and the life...well, that doesn't leave room for your assertion that everything is up for debate.

the fact that Christians can respectably disagree on some points is a good testament to them, not a detraction.

If we all agreed you guys would point the finger saying we are zombies and a cult. the double-standard here is laughable.

You are being overly defensive here.

No, it's not free will when you have strict guidelines as to what you can and cannot do, who you can and cannot worship etc.
He says straight out that you will die and burn in hell if you don't accept and believe without question.

If he had been so incredible loving, he would have forgiven us for our ignorance and just proven us wrong after we die and still let us in with him in heaven.
The God image in all religions are like suckers for power.
Why is that?

And in my opinion, you all are zombies. You guys are limited to one point of view, and a view you really don't follow at all.
Boxing would not be something you would be doing if you should follow the belief 100%.
Explain that away as much as you like, but that's seeking violence.
And if you get hit, I doubt you turn the other cheek.

Or are you saying that you should read between the lines when it comes to that?

Answer J, I'm interested in what you have to say about his points.