Linear Title?

[Sugarj]

That's exactly what TBear said in his initial post.

We've been on quite a journey since then!

Even if the true linear champion is in dispute right now, Vitali was rightly the linear champion after Lewis. He as number 2 beat number 3.......thats how it is done.

We're not getting anywhere here. Time to call it a night for me. Take care fella.

[IronDanHamza]

Vitali as the number 2 ranked heavyweight contender beat the number 3contender (Sanders) after Lewis retired. It helps that Sanders only three months previously had knocked out Wlad. That is as good a claim to the linear title as Patterson when he beat Moore or Schmelling when he was Dq'd against Sharkey.

And this has what to do with who the Lineal Champion is today?

I've said in two previous posts that I see your point about the four year retirement (forced) affecting Vitali's claim. Though you chose not to answer my point about when Frazier might have became linear champion after Ali's forced retirement.

Where did you say anything about Joe Frazier?

[Sugarj]

And this has what to do with who the Lineal Champion is today?



Where did you say anything about Joe Frazier?

Post 22 fella. Probably the crux of the entire argument. Did Frazier become linear champ in 67 or four years later when he beat Ali?

Four years is quite interesting seeing as Vitali's forced retirement was for that long. Food for thought?

[IronDanHamza]

What has nine years got to do with it? Vitali has been undefeated for those nine years. And if you think the loss to Lewis was anything more than it looks on film, fair enough.

If thats the way you see it fella, no hard feelings. I personally think Vitali's claim is better.

He hasn't lost since Lewis, Wlad has. Vitali has beaten the guy who beat Wlad and he won the WBC title doing it. He did a better job on Sam Peter too.

As for Vitali's retirement affecting his claim. I see your angle and you might have many supporters there.

But I'll leave you with a thought:

When did Frazier become linear champ? When Ali was forced into retirement in 1967 or when they met in 1971?

I'll say 1971......four years later!

Incidentally, I've always rated Vitali over Wlad. If they were to meet my money would be on big brother. He is the superior of the two to my eyes. If you really feel that Wlad should be seen as the better fighter thats your call.

This post eluded me.

When did Joe Frazier become the Lineal Champion? When he won the Tornuament for the World Heavyweight Title when Ali went into retirement.

When Ali returned from retirement, the Heavy Weight Champion of the world was of course Joe Frazier.

As for you question as to what the fact the fight was 9 years ago had to do with it; It has a lot to do with it.

You can't just retire, for whatever reason, for multiple years and come back on still have a claim to the Lineal Title.

[Sugarj]

This post eluded me.

When did Joe Frazier become the Lineal Champion? When he won the Tornuament for the World Heavyweight Title when Ali went into retirement.

When Ali returned from retirement, the Heavy Weight Champion of the world was of course Joe Frazier.

As for you question as to what the fact the fight was 9 years ago had to do with it; It has a lot to do with it.

You can't just retire, for whatever reason, for multiple years and come back on still have a claim to the Lineal Title.

Thats a fine argument. One I respect. You'd have seen Frazier as linear champ in what 67/68?

Many only saw Frazier as linear champ after he beat Ali. Thats the way I'd have seen it.

I think if you'd put up an unbiased poll amongst us as to when Frazier actually became linear champ I think you would get quite a wide split of opinion. I wouldn't like to guess the outcome, but I trust you see the angle.

By any argument Vitali had the best linear claim at least up till his retirement in 2004.......by virtue of his win over Sanders when they were matched for the vacant title they were ranked 2 & 3 (the same as Patterson and Moore after Marciano's retirement).

After 2004's Vitali retirement, ok.....there is an angle here. But I trust the Frazier example demonstrates that he might well have as good a claim as Wlad, even if you disagree.

Anyway, its 2:00 AM here, I'm off to sleep fella.

[Tiozzo]

Did you ever watch the Lewis vs Vitali fight? That was no 6th round TKO. Vitali was getting the better of Lewis to most observers' eyes (including the judges). Full credit to Lewis for finding the blow to open up the cut which forced the stoppage. Vitali was furious and very much wanted a rematch. Lewis retired, says it all really.

Lewis was very sub par that night. I think his performance convinced him to retire. Something tells me he'd have been the underdog if a rematch was made.

Thats why I think Vitali has a better claim to the linear championship.

But no no no, Wlad does not have a claim to the linear championship. Just a couple of months before Vitali met Lewis, Wlad was sparked by Corrie Sanders......and a few fights later was stopped by Lamon Brewster. He has rebuilt well but the best claim belongs to Vitali, who hasn't lost since.

Iron has replied to a lot of your points and I agree with what he wrote, so I'll just cover what is left

I must have seen Lewis-Klitschko at least 3 or 4 times, and though Vitali had success in the first 2 or 3 rounds, Lewis started adjusting and he was right back in the fight in the 3rd or 4th round, and from that point on, he was taking over the fight, landing the harder blows, pressing Vitali

at the end of the sixth, Lewis looked the fresher fighter to me, and I do hope you're not serious when you say a fighter is unlucky to have half of his face ripped apart by Lennox Lewis' right hand

I believe Vitali would have crumbled in the next 2 rounds without the doctor stopping the fight, and that happens to be exactly Lewis' take, that he would have ended the fight in the next 2 rounds

but of course we'll never know

[Anthony342]

Which is why when the "Lineal Champion" retires, the #1 fights the #2 to determine the new Lineal Champion.

Which, is why TBear said there hasn't been a Lineal Champion since Lennox Lewis because the Klitschko's won't fight each other and have been #1 and #2 since 2004 onwards.

However, some say Wladimir Klitschko gained the Lineal Championship when he beat Chagaev who was ranked #3.



That was 9 years ago.

Does Vitali Klitschko's 4 year retirement not count? Does he still have claimed to the Lineage (That he never won) after 4 years without fighting?

Going by the logic you're using on H2H match ups. Wlad has a "Even better better" claim than Vitali for eternity because Vitali quit on his stool against Chris Byrd and then in Byrds very next fight he got dominated by guess who? Wladimir Klitshcko.

Flawed logic.



Vitali's loss to Lennox Lewis was 9 years ago. That performance has nothing to do with today and what unfolded after that day.

And it was absolutely a stoppage loss. He got cut, but a punch, and rightfully stopped. That is a clear, cut and dry loss.

What's unlucky about being punched in the face and severely cut? This is Boxing, you know.



Wladimir Klitschko, obviously.

Vitali Klitschko has done nothing but feast on unranked fighters since coming out of retirement whilst Wlad has pretty much cleaned out all the ranked fighters at HW.

True, but Wlad's 36 now, so probably has only a couple of more good years left before he retires for good. Hopefully then the #1 will fight the #2 ranked heavyweight and we can start a new lineage.

[Sugarj]

Iron has replied to a lot of your points and I agree with what he wrote, so I'll just cover what is left

I must have seen Lewis-Klitschko at least 3 or 4 times, and though Vitali had success in the first 2 or 3 rounds, Lewis started adjusting and he was right back in the fight in the 3rd or 4th round, and from that point on, he was taking over the fight, landing the harder blows, pressing Vitali

at the end of the sixth, Lewis looked the fresher fighter to me, and I do hope you're not serious when you say a fighter is unlucky to have half of his face ripped apart by Lennox Lewis' right hand

I believe Vitali would have crumbled in the next 2 rounds without the doctor stopping the fight, and that happens to be exactly Lewis' take, that he would have ended the fight in the next 2 rounds

but of course we'll never know

I thought Lewis looked pretty poor that night. I'd never seen him that sloppy before, even against Rahman the first time. He looked sluggish and old. But his fighting heart was superb.

I seem to recall an incredible uppercut from Lewis.....and obviously what caused the cut eye for Vitali.

I don't think Lewis was on his way to a knockout though......certainly not in the next couple of rounds.

It was scandalous that Lewis didn't rematch Vitali. Vitali was livid after the fight. It was very smart of Lewis, but a shame for the fans.

Never mind......its not really important.

[Ben Bolt]

When did Frazier become linear champ? When Ali was forced into retirement in 1967 or when they met in 1971?

Ali withdrew his claim to the world title on Feb. 5, 1970. At the time, Frazier and Ellis were rated 1 and 2, respectively, so when Frazier knocked out Ellis on Feb. 16, he was the legitimate lineal champion.

Me myself, still holds The Ring's world belts as the most prestigious. Because of its tradition, and that it invented the concept of boxing rankings in the 1920's.

There are some independent internet sites whose efforts are to give prominency to the rightful, lineal champions, and they also catch my interest.

To me, an alphabet belt is just an alphabet belt, of little or no value. And I have never understood why boxers/managers agree to pay those sanction fees.

[Anthony342]

I still say it's when Frazier beat Ali in 1971, because he beat the previous heavyweight champion therefore he "beat the guy that beat the guy."