Being "shot" and other boxing terms...

[TintaBoricua]

Shot fighters- we hear about fighters that, either after a brutal fight or a brutal loss, are “shot”. What exactly does shot mean and where did it come from? We use shot as a term to describe a fighter who isn’t good as he used to be, but where does that term derive from (being “shot”).
While we’re at it, how come a fighter becomes a shell of his former self (assuming the fighter didn’t occur any life-threatening damage)? A fighter may be involved in a hard fought, back-and-forth fight that leaves both fighters tired and spent. Given the nature of the fight, the fighters are given a recovery phase of four to five months. Within that period, they allow their bodies to heal, rest and become ready for the next training regime and eventual fight. My question is, if they’re given time to recover after a fight and they haven’t sustained any life-threatening injuries, then what is it that makes a fighter “shot”?

Is it a mental state of inferiority?

For example, Naseem Hamed was well-known in his division and was dominating everyone until he ran into Barrera. Soon afterwards, he left the sport. Could he be considered “shot”?

Judah, same deal. He was a well-known, undefeated fighter, was stopped early by a single punch against Kostya Tszyu, and then afterwards he’s been up and down ever since. Was he “shot” after that fight?

Cotto was Puerto Rican’s next big thing. In the follow-up to his big fight with Mosley in late 2007, he went on to fight Margarito in what would be a hardcore boxing fan’s fight. Cotto landing the flashier combination and punches, but Margarito landing the subtle body punches. What followed suit was Cotto looking not as impressive or imposing as he once was. Granted, you could make the case that Clottey was difficult and Pacquiao is a phenomenon, but could you consider Cotto “shot”?

Fernando Vargas was a power-punching phenom that was the pride of Mexico. Tossed to Trinidad at an age some deem too young, Vargas lost in the 12th round in what was a brutal fight. Afterwards, his career became a mixed bag of sorts.

What IS being shot then? Mental state? Lost physical talents (if yes, then how do you lose them?)

Case in point: Jones, Jr. Arguably the fighter of the 90’s, one left hand is all it took for Jones to become completely change as a fighter afterwards. Was he “shot” after that fight?

That’s what I’m trying to find out: Is being “shot” many things or is it one thing? Is it mental or physical? If it’s mental, is it understandable? If it’s physical, why can’t fighters recover from it (assuming it’s just ONE fight)?
“Down for the count”- when a fighter is “down for the count”, it means that he has been dropped to the canvas and is being counted out by the referee. He is down [on the canvas] for the [referee’s] count.
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“Out on his feet”- the term comes from a fighter not being in conditions to continue fighting during a fight yet is still somehow standing up. The term may also refer to a fighter who has been knocked out or is on the verge of being knocked out yet is still standing.
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GOAT= acronym meaing “Greatest of all Time”. A term used by Muhammad Ali and is now used to describe fighter’s of great stature in the boxing world by boxing fans in casual conversations. Example: “Jones, Jr…GOAT!” “Charlie Zelenoff…..GOAT!”

FEEL FREE TO ADD OTHER BOXING TERMS...

[Ringthebell]

Great post. Being "shot" can be mental, physical or both. A fighter can never fully recover from punishment. It has a cummulative effect on the brain and neurolgical functions of the body that takes its toll over time. It affects their timing and their ability to withstand punishment. That is why a fighter "gets old overnight" or has "lost his legs". Look at Arturo Gatti. Even though he never stopped being a tough guy, his ability to fight at a high level and absorb punisment was seriously compromised by the amount of wars he had been involved in throughout his career. Do you really think he would have lost to Alfonso Gomez earlier in his career?

The mental aspect of the game is greater than most people realize. Self-belief is what gets a fighter to the top, and when that fighter's psyche is put to the test with a loss (or worse, a knock out loss) some fighters do not recover fully. No matter how many times Cotto told himself that Pac could not hurt him, he knew that based on what Margarito did to him, he could be knocked out. Look at Mike Tyson; he was never the same after Douglas. No matter what bluster he offered, when he was lying in bed at night with his thoughts, self-doubt had to enter his mind knowing he could be knocked out. Some fighters have stronger mental make up than others, which is why some rebound and some fold up shop.

Another phrase is "dead at the weight", which basically means that a fighter's days of being effective at a certain weight are over because the effort to get to that weight has sapped everything from him. Recent examples would be DLH and Hatton.

Sorry for the long response.

[javelin_fangs]

Shot fighters- we hear about fighters that, either after a brutal fight or a brutal loss, are “shot”. What exactly does shot mean and where did it come from? We use shot as a term to describe a fighter who isn’t good as he used to be, but where does that term derive from (being “shot”).
While we’re at it, how come a fighter becomes a shell of his former self (assuming the fighter didn’t occur any life-threatening damage)? A fighter may be involved in a hard fought, back-and-forth fight that leaves both fighters tired and spent. Given the nature of the fight, the fighters are given a recovery phase of four to five months. Within that period, they allow their bodies to heal, rest and become ready for the next training regime and eventual fight. My question is, if they’re given time to recover after a fight and they haven’t sustained any life-threatening injuries, then what is it that makes a fighter “shot”?

Is it a mental state of inferiority?

For example, Naseem Hamed was well-known in his division and was dominating everyone until he ran into Barrera. Soon afterwards, he left the sport. Could he be considered “shot”?

Judah, same deal. He was a well-known, undefeated fighter, was stopped early by a single punch against Kostya Tszyu, and then afterwards he’s been up and down ever since. Was he “shot” after that fight?

Cotto was Puerto Rican’s next big thing. In the follow-up to his big fight with Mosley in late 2007, he went on to fight Margarito in what would be a hardcore boxing fan’s fight. Cotto landing the flashier combination and punches, but Margarito landing the subtle body punches. What followed suit was Cotto looking not as impressive or imposing as he once was. Granted, you could make the case that Clottey was difficult and Pacquiao is a phenomenon, but could you consider Cotto “shot”?

Fernando Vargas was a power-punching phenom that was the pride of Mexico. Tossed to Trinidad at an age some deem too young, Vargas lost in the 12th round in what was a brutal fight. Afterwards, his career became a mixed bag of sorts.

What IS being shot then? Mental state? Lost physical talents (if yes, then how do you lose them?)

Case in point: Jones, Jr. Arguably the fighter of the 90’s, one left hand is all it took for Jones to become completely change as a fighter afterwards. Was he “shot” after that fight?

That’s what I’m trying to find out: Is being “shot” many things or is it one thing? Is it mental or physical? If it’s mental, is it understandable? If it’s physical, why can’t fighters recover from it (assuming it’s just ONE fight)?
“Down for the count”- when a fighter is “down for the count”, it means that he has been dropped to the canvas and is being counted out by the referee. He is down [on the canvas] for the [referee’s] count.
------------------------------------------------------
“Out on his feet”- the term comes from a fighter not being in conditions to continue fighting during a fight yet is still somehow standing up. The term may also refer to a fighter who has been knocked out or is on the verge of being knocked out yet is still standing.
------------------------------------------------------

GOAT= acronym meaing “Greatest of all Time”. A term used by Muhammad Ali and is now used to describe fighter’s of great stature in the boxing world by boxing fans in casual conversations. Example: “Jones, Jr…GOAT!” “Charlie Zelenoff…..GOAT!”

FEEL FREE TO ADD OTHER BOXING TERMS...

The term shot is typically misused. I believe this is because most of the people who write and talk about boxing in the media haven't actually fought before. So, they use the term when it doesn't really apply.

Shot really means you physically don't have the ability to fight anymore. This doesn't mean your reflexes have dulled slightly or that you're a half step slower than you used to be. It means no matter how long you train or how well you get yourself in shape you won't be able to fight at your peak for longer than maybe a round or two, if that. Look at a late career Mike Tyson. That's a shot fighter.

Zab Judah isn't shot. He just doesn't get himself in shape to fight 12 hard rounds so he gets tired. Miguel Cotto, on the other hand, doesn't get tired like Judah...he's punchy, he's shot.

I think at some point people incorporated an element of how fighters react to punches within the definition of shot and that warped what it meant. Because look at Roy Jones. He used to have a good chin, but he doesn't react to punches well anymore. But he can still fight at a decent level for 12 rounds as long as you don't crack his chin. Roy Jones got KO'd by Tarver and then became chinny. I wouldn't consider that shot because there are shot fighters who are basically punching bags who won't go down.

The term shot doesn't really refer to a fighters ability to take a punch. It has to do with his ability to fight the way he needs to. So, I think what happened is people started using the word shot for fighter who got chinny late in their career and it just messed everything up.

[javelin_fangs]

Great post. Being "shot" can be mental, physical or both. A fighter can never fully recover from punishment. It has a cummulative effect on the brain and neurolgical functions of the body that takes its toll over time. It affects their timing and their ability to withstand punishment. That is why a fighter "gets old overnight" or has "lost his legs". Look at Arturo Gatti. Even though he never stopped being a tough guy, his ability to fight at a high level and absorb punisment was seriously compromised by the amount of wars he had been involved in throughout his career. Do you really think he would have lost to Alfonso Gomez earlier in his career?

The mental aspect of the game is greater than most people realize. Self-belief is what gets a fighter to the top, and when that fighter's psyche is put to the test with a loss (or worse, a knock out loss) some fighters do not recover fully. No matter how many times Cotto told himself that Pac could not hurt him, he knew that based on what Margarito did to him, he could be knocked out. Look at Mike Tyson; he was never the same after Douglas. No matter what bluster he offered, when he was lying in bed at night with his thoughts, self-doubt had to enter his mind knowing he could be knocked out. Some fighters have stronger mental make up than others, which is why some rebound and some fold up shop.

Another phrase is "dead at the weight", which basically means that a fighter's days of being effective at a certain weight are over because the effort to get to that weight has sapped everything from him. Recent examples would be DLH and Hatton.

Sorry for the long response.

Everything you said is true, but I don't think all of those things fall under the umbrella of a fighter being shot. They're different things. Shot is the physical part of it. Shot means you just don't have it anymore. It's the "lost your legs" syndrome. Because if it includes the mental aspect then maybe Mikkel Kessler was "shot" against Andre Ward.

Kessler had already lost to a slick and slippery fighter in Calzaghe and probably just didn't have confidence in his ability to overcome Ward. But Kessler isn't fighting a slick, slippery fighter in Froch and maybe he'll have his confidence back. Does he go from being shot against Ward to not shot against Froch? I really don't think it works like that? Can a fighter be shot against boxers, but not shot against brawlers or vice versa? I just don't think so.

[-The Glove-]

Everything you said is true, but I don't think all of those things fall under the umbrella of a fighter being shot. They're different things. Shot is the physical part of it. Shot means you just don't have it anymore. It's the "lost your legs" syndrome. Because if it includes the mental aspect then maybe Mikkel Kessler was "shot" against Andre Ward.

Kessler had already lost to a slick and slippery fighter in Calzaghe and probably just didn't have confidence in his ability to overcome Ward. But Kessler isn't fighting a slick, slippery fighter in Froch and maybe he'll have his confidence back. Does he go from being shot against Ward to not shot against Froch? I really don't think it works like that? Can a fighter be shot against boxers, but not shot against brawlers or vice versa? I just don't think so.

Cosign 100%. I think the term is thrown around far too often. These are professional fighters we're talking about that have trained their whole lives for these huge moments. I don't see how 1 loss can make these professionals a shot fighter.

[Pullcounter]

Shot fighters- we hear about fighters that, either after a brutal fight or a brutal loss, are “shot”. What exactly does shot mean and where did it come from?

IMHO usually the word "shot" is used in reference to reflexes. Like his reflexes are "shot".

but where does that term derive from (being “shot”).

probably from the fact that if you shoot someone with a gun (shot) they are dead or dying.

While we’re at it, how come a fighter becomes a shell of his former self (assuming the fighter didn’t occur any life-threatening damage)?

through physical deterioration of reflexes,

My question is, if they’re given time to recover after a fight and they haven’t sustained any life-threatening injuries, then what is it that makes a fighter “shot”?

if the fighter's reflexes have deteriorated then he is shot.

Is it a mental state of inferiority?

no. a better word would be "shook" or "spooked"

For example, Naseem Hamed was well-known in his division and was dominating everyone until he ran into Barrera. Soon afterwards, he left the sport. Could he be considered “shot”?

no, hamed got shook or spooked.

Judah, same deal. He was a well-known, undefeated fighter, was stopped early by a single punch against Kostya Tszyu, and then afterwards he’s been up and down ever since. Was he “shot” after that fight?

no, judah got exposed.

Cotto was Puerto Rican’s next big thing. In the follow-up to his big fight with Mosley in late 2007, he went on to fight Margarito in what would be a hardcore boxing fan’s fight. Cotto landing the flashier combination and punches, but Margarito landing the subtle body punches. What followed suit was Cotto looking not as impressive or imposing as he once was. Granted, you could make the case that Clottey was difficult and Pacquiao is a phenomenon, but could you consider Cotto “shot”?

cotto is not shot. cotto is very good, but he was not great. remember cotto got rocked by corley at 140 lbs. since margo was the first to really put a beat down on cotto, people think margo made him shot. imho, cotto was never that good. cotto almost lived up to hype, but fell short.

Fernando Vargas was a power-punching phenom that was the pride of Mexico. Tossed to Trinidad at an age some deem too young, Vargas lost in the 12th round in what was a brutal fight. Afterwards, his career became a mixed bag of sorts.

vargas was not shot after the tito fight, but his punch resistance was ruined by tito. that happens sometimes when a boxer gets KTFO, they can't take the same shots anymore. Vargas didn't become shot until his thyroid problem and back problems ruined his reflexes.

What IS being shot then? Mental state?

no

Lost physical talents (if yes, then how do you lose them?)

yes, but specifically reflexes. you lose them to old age or physical damage to the nervous system.

Case in point: Jones, Jr. Arguably the fighter of the 90’s, one left hand is all it took for Jones to become completely change as a fighter afterwards. Was he “shot” after that fight?

as for RJJ, I think he was always chinny, but because of his reflexes he never got caught. now that RJJ is sitting on the ropes way too much and has lost his reflexes and speed, he cannot avoid the big shots anymore.

That’s what I’m trying to find out: Is being “shot” many things or is it one thing?

one thing: loss of reflexes

Is it mental or physical?

physical

If it’s mental, is it understandable?

not mental

If it’s physical, why can’t fighters recover from it (assuming it’s just ONE fight)?

1) can't reverse old age
2) can't / hard to repair the nervous system

“Down for the count”- when a fighter is “down for the count”, it means that he has been dropped to the canvas and is being counted out by the referee. He is down [on the canvas] for the [referee’s] count.

it means the ref counted to 10 and the fighter can't get up.

------------------------------------------------------
“Out on his feet”- the term comes from a fighter not being in conditions to continue fighting during a fight yet is still somehow standing up. The term may also refer to a fighter who has been knocked out or is on the verge of being knocked out yet is still standing.

means a fighter is discombabulated and defenseless while on his feet

GOAT= acronym meaing “Greatest of all Time”. A term used by Muhammad Ali and is now used to describe fighter’s of great stature in the boxing world by boxing fans in casual conversations. Example: “Jones, Jr…GOAT!” “Charlie Zelenoff…..GOAT!”

GOAT = sugar ray robinson