20 billion:Do you agree with D'Amato that a swarming fighter could never beat Foreman

[Mugwump]

It kind of depends on your definition of a "swarming" fighter. One who from the first minute to the last closes distance throwing punches from all angles in an attempt to bludgeon his opponent into submission OR one who intelligently ducks in and out of range taking opportunities to deliver five, six or seven punch combinations when possible.

If it's the former - probably not. If it's the latter - sure (the most obvious example being Ali).

[StarshipTrooper]

It kind of depends on your definition of a "swarming" fighter. One who from the first minute to the last closes distance throwing punches from all angles in an attempt to bludgeon his opponent into submission OR one who intelligently ducks in and out of range taking opportunities to deliver five, six or seven punch combinations when possible.

If it's the former - probably not. If it's the latter - sure (the most obvious example being Ali).

It's the former. Joe Frazier and Mike Tyson are good examples of swarmers.

Poet

[Mugwump]

It's the former. Joe Frazier and Mike Tyson are good examples of swarmers.

Poet

I'm sure it is. Perhaps it's a cultural thing. You see I'd label such a fighter a slugger, or perhaps a pressure fighter. But it's kind of academic. We all know such when we see one.

[Capaedia]

If you're gonna stay close to George for any period of time chances are you're gonna get caught.

And it's not recommended to be caught by Big George.

Now going by a few of the hooks that Frazier managed to land on George that made him shake his head a little (what if they had been on the temple or right on the jaw? Well we'll never know unless George agrees to a rematch), I wouldn't say never just that it's nigh impossible for a swarmer to beat George Foreman.

[Sugarj]

I would have to read D'Amato's quote exactly and understand the context of what he was saying before giving a proper answer. Its true that a swarming style that puts the fighter in range of Foreman's heavy uppercuts is not ideal.

1970s Foreman was awesome, but lets not pretend that he was a solid 12 or 15 round fighter. Ali and Young did, to a degree expose his issues with pacing and I'm not 100% convinced that were a 1969-1971 Frazier to have faced Foreman that he would have been bombed out quite as conclusively.

1973 Frazier was not quite what he was a few years earlier...... he had taken alot of punishment in the 1971 fight with Ali, he was heavier, his head movement wasn't quite as sharp, he was ring rusty (having only faced two fringe contenders in two years) and he was the heavy betting favorite; a sure recipe for disaster against a murderous puncher like Foreman.

If a prime Frazier had got through 5 rounds (and granted it is an 'if') I'd give him a passable chance at a decision win over 12 or 15 rounds.

I don't see a prime Tyson getting bombed out early, his chin early on in fights was damn good and I'd fancy that he'd be giving as good as he was getting for a few rounds at least. It might just be the case that Foreman would have used up his best before any of Mike's self doubt demons could surface......and they'd both be exhausted by the mid rounds without much left in the tanks.

Tyson was pretty damn sharp for 5 or 6 rounds around 1987/88 and I could see him doing well slipping and hooking with fast counters, Foreman was pretty easy to hit and often clumsily open. Prime Tyson would hit Foreman, I'm in no doubt of that......and vice versa of course! I wouldn't go so far as to say that I'd bet on a Tyson win (its a very nasty style matchup for Tyson), but I don't think that it is beyond the realms of possibility if both men were still standing by the end of round 6.

[Greatest1942]

I would have to read D'Amato's quote exactly and understand the context of what he was saying before giving a proper answer. Its true that a swarming style that puts the fighter in range of Foreman's heavy uppercuts is not ideal.

1970s Foreman was awesome, but lets not pretend that he was a solid 12 or 15 round fighter. Ali and Young did, to a degree expose his issues with pacing and I'm not 100% convinced that were a 1969-1971 Frazier to have faced Foreman that he would have been bombed out quite as conclusively.

1973 Frazier was not quite what he was a few years earlier...... he had taken alot of punishment in the 1971 fight with Ali, he was heavier, his head movement wasn't quite as sharp, he was ring rusty (having only faced two fringe contenders in two years) and he was the heavy betting favorite; a sure recipe for disaster against a murderous puncher like Foreman.

If a prime Frazier had got through 5 rounds (and granted it is an 'if') I'd give him a passable chance at a decision win over 12 or 15 rounds.

I don't see a prime Tyson getting bombed out early, his chin early on in fights was damn good and I'd fancy that he'd be giving as good as he was getting for a few rounds at least. It might just be the case that Foreman would have used up his best before any of Mike's self doubt demons could surface......and they'd both be exhausted by the mid rounds without much left in the tanks.

Tyson was pretty damn sharp for 5 or 6 rounds around 1987/88 and I could see him doing well slipping and hooking with fast counters, Foreman was pretty easy to hit and often clumsily open. Prime Tyson would hit Foreman, I'm in no doubt of that......and vice versa of course! I wouldn't go so far as to say that I'd bet on a Tyson win (its a very nasty style matchup for Tyson), but I don't think that it is beyond the realms of possibility if both men were still standing by the end of round 6.

Agreed that George never carried his power late, and that version of Frzier isn't an accurate description of all the swarmers in the world.

I will give Jack Dempsey a chance, he had a good chin, could take a back ward step when needed, could jab well and had good two handed power, good handspeed and a killer instinct.

I won't bet against Foreman though, but I won't be surprised if Jack catches him on the chin after 5-6 rounds and KO's Foreman.

[Tiozzo]

If you're anything that comes forward and attack, you gonna have a hard time living in Big George's world

[Ascended]

No cause he never said it that's a dumb myth

[The Old LefHook]

Interesting speculation, and it probably took a Cus to make it with authority and for all the right reasons.

[QueensburyRules]

Agreed that George never carried his power late, and that version of Frzier isn't an accurate description of all the swarmers in the world.

I will give Jack Dempsey a chance, he had a good chin, could take a back ward step when needed, could jab well and had good two handed power, good handspeed and a killer instinct.

I won't bet against Foreman though, but I won't be surprised if Jack catches him on the chin after 5-6 rounds and KO's Foreman.

- - Old man Koed cold undefeated champ Moorer in the 10th rd in spite of enduring one of the great whippings in hvywt history, and as a novice absolutely pulverized the very underrated Peralta in their rematch that was seconds from a KO when the ref waved it off in the 10, a mercy pinned on the ropes stoppage.

I suggest you're beguiled by all the early mid rounds KOs George racked up, ie he never had many fights going past 8rds much less 10.