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To Film Or Not To Film

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  • To Film Or Not To Film

    Some fighters there is enough film of to make some kind of conclusion. Other fighters there is too little or nothing to make a conclusion.

    Any modern fighter we can see and judge fairly according to our own norms. But certain fighters from the past have only legend supporting them, and the entries in their record.

    We can see how Jefferies fought, and Fitz, and even Corbett. Whether or not there is enough film record to make a decent determination, might become debatable with oldsters like these.

    We can make a fair determination of Willie Pep, but can the same be said of Benny Leonard, for instance?

    Only a few jerky minutes of Sam Langford exist.

    Dempsey and Tunney, on the other hand, are complete enough.

    How about Ketchel? There must be about half an hour of him.

    No one will ever know how Joe Gans or Barbados Walcott looked in the ring. We might gain some hints in those they influenced.

    It is a curse of history that one of boxing's best who lived and fought during the early golden age of Hollywood, left behind no film record of himself in action. Harry Greb is by far the most notable pug never captured in action, who could have been. But there are plenty of others.

    A bout between Greb and Mickey Walker was actually filmed and then disappeared. Find that in film in decent condition, boys, and you will be millionaires!

  • #2
    It also depends on the quality of the film as well. I do not think we really see the skills or physical gifts due to the quality of footage

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    • #3
      Originally posted by rightsideup View Post
      It also depends on the quality of the film as well. I do not think we really see the skills or physical gifts due to the quality of footage
      This is indeed a big problem. In the eighteen hundreds when taking a photo people would have to sit for almost a minute due to exposure time in film.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by rightsideup View Post
        It also depends on the quality of the film as well. I do not think we really see the skills or physical gifts due to the quality of footage
        Still it is better than having nothing. We can see where a man held his guard, how he moved about the ring, type of footwork, etc.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by The Old LefHook View Post
          Some fighters there is enough film of to make some kind of conclusion. Other fighters there is too little or nothing to make a conclusion.

          Any modern fighter we can see and judge fairly according to our own norms. But certain fighters from the past have only legend supporting them, and the entries in their record.

          We can see how Jefferies fought, and Fitz, and even Corbett. Whether or not there is enough film record to make a decent determination, might become debatable with oldsters like these.

          We can make a fair determination of Willie Pep, but can the same be said of Benny Leonard, for instance?

          Only a few jerky minutes of Sam Langford exist.

          Dempsey and Tunney, on the other hand, are complete enough.

          How about Ketchel? There must be about half an hour of him.

          No one will ever know how Joe Gans or Barbados Walcott looked in the ring. We might gain some hints in those they influenced.

          It is a curse of history that one of boxing's best who lived and fought during the early golden age of Hollywood, left behind no film record of himself in action. Harry Greb is by far the most notable pug never captured in action, who could have been. But there are plenty of others.

          A bout between Greb and Mickey Walker was actually filmed and then disappeared. Find that in film in decent condition, boys, and you will be millionaires!
          Some alright footage of Langford


          There used to be an interview with Barbados Joe Walcott in his older years up on Youtube some time ago but it got taken down.

          There's a bit of Joe Gans on there as well.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by The Old LefHook View Post
            Still it is better than having nothing. We can see where a man held his guard, how he moved about the ring, type of footwork, etc.
            exactly. i dont see how quality of film affects judgement of skills (except speed, due the frame rate they were shot at, but this should be obvious and relative)


            and my opinion on this whole legendary name thing is, surely they deserve the honour but not necessarily the all time top p4p list if theres no video of them.

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            • #7
              Talking to some of the past greats who fought other past greats is a legit means to form your opinion of fighters. Even if they just saw them as opposed to fought them.
              I remember Pep talking about Benny Leonard and praising his conditioning and stylings. A friend of mine fought and spared with Joe Louis so I have alot of insight with him regarding Mr. Blackburn also. I have an uncle who fought in the beginning of the 20's up to 1930 as a "part time" pro fighter who saw alot of greats also. He lived to be 95 yrs old.
              I think theres enough articles and interviews to add to whatever film might be available to form a decent opinion of those men.

              Ray.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Ray Corso View Post
                Talking to some of the past greats who fought other past greats is a legit means to form your opinion of fighters. Even if they just saw them as opposed to fought them.
                I remember Pep talking about Benny Leonard and praising his conditioning and stylings. A friend of mine fought and spared with Joe Louis so I have alot of insight with him regarding Mr. Blackburn also. I have an uncle who fought in the beginning of the 20's up to 1930 as a "part time" pro fighter who saw alot of greats also. He lived to be 95 yrs old.
                I think theres enough articles and interviews to add to whatever film might be available to form a decent opinion of those men.

                Ray.
                We get insight any way we can. You bet the opinion of past fighters and articles are relevant and a legitimate way of nudging one's own opinions and beliefs. Though not as good as film, they are what we have. We have to try to use our information judiciously, extractiong truth rather than hyperbole.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by NChristo View Post
                  Some alright footage of Langford


                  There used to be an interview with Barbados Joe Walcott in his older years up on Youtube some time ago but it got taken down.

                  There's a bit of Joe Gans on there as well.
                  The boys both had some long arms, didn't they? Langford is a forward moving counterpuncher here. Notice how he does not hover over Jeanette when he is down a la Dempsey, but allows him to stand all the way. It appears Sam is warned by the referee once for use of the shoulder. They are not taking it easy on each other. Could today's steroid bulls stand this pace?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by nivek535 View Post
                    exactly. i dont see how quality of film affects judgement of skills (except speed, due the frame rate they were shot at, but this should be obvious and relative)


                    and my opinion on this whole legendary name thing is, surely they deserve the honour but not necessarily the all time top p4p list if theres no video of them.
                    We have a network in Canada that airs on Sunday some early tv bouts with some contenders and the odd championship fight and the picture sometimes is very fuzzy, and frustrating. Some film footage of Louis in the late 30 s is better'

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