Sometimes I Wonder Why Did Roy Ever Waste His Time Fighting Fighters Like.....

[IMDAZED]

???????
It didn't become the norm across the board until 2002, but as I said before the state of Indiana were ahead of the times and had their own pilot steroid testing scheme

He got busted using roids against Hall and basically got a slap on the wrist from the state of Indiana, who asked him to hand in urine samples from his next two fights. As I said before he clearly slipped a step from the Harding fight to the Harmon fight.

For the record I find it funny that you are so skeptical about this, when its about Benn turning down fights with Jones you are quite happy to accept any thing posters on boxingscene post up.

Skeptical? I posted several pages ago that he got busted for roids and that they basically did nothing about it. I also posted that the news didn't come out until well after the fact. So I don't know what you're talking about except the one thing I'm skeptical about is your notion that Jones was a long-time user and Toney not because Jones got caught less. So...for the sixth (seventh?) time - we don't know what the effects were and when they occurred.

[Toney616]

Why would it be stupid? Assuming he learns how to beat the test - or already knew - why would he stop? But he would use it for Richard Hall? Not Julio Gonzalez? I don't buy that.

He did not know he was ever going to get tested for steroids - so he had no reason to learn how to beat any test going into the Hall fight. The Indiana state were going to test him for Harmon and Hall and that is it, after that he doesnt have to worry about ever getting tested again. As I said before he looked a very different fighter from Harding to Harmon.

Again, we can't pretend to know when people did or didn't use to suit our argument.

He used it for the Hall fight. Most probably was using for the Harding fight, which would explain why he never gave the urine sample the IBF were asking off him. He knew he was going to get tested for Harmon and Ginzalez. Why take the chance? Neither of those guys were high risk opponents.

[Toney616]

Skeptical? I posted several pages ago that he got busted for roids and that they basically did nothing about it. I also posted that the news didn't come out until well after the fact. So I don't know what you're talking about

Im talking about this:

Second...and for the last time...you don't know when Jones did or didn't use steroids.

He used it for that Hall fight
Refused to give a urine sample during his camp for the Harding fight - so he was most probably using for that fight

except the one thing I'm skeptical about is your notion that Jones was a long-time user and Toney not because Jones got caught less.

He was stacking, which is a strictly amateur way of using drugs. Either way it is a bad comparison, see post below

So...for the sixth (seventh?) time - we don't know what the effects were and when they occurred.

You can't compare Toney to Jones because:
1: We dont know what peds they both were using. They would have to using the same ped's to make a comparison
2: Toney weight went completely out of control post Ruiz- and its hard to make a fight by fight comparison for him him seeing as how his weight was all over the place.

[Toney616]

Collins, Benn, Eubank, McClellan, Calzaghe, Michalzweski, Ricchigiani and Nunn.

The Collins-Jones negotiations part 1:

Steve Collins came up through the ranks of boxing the hard way. He didnt get to earn a big purse until he got lucky and fought Eubank, after Ray Close pulled out of the bout with Eubank. After the fight he calls out Jones saying that he wants to prove he is the best smw out there
Source: post fight interview for: Collins-Eubank I

Frank Warren made offers to Jones on behalf of Collins:

Steve Collins last night issued a world-title challenge to American superstar Roy Jones and vowed: "I'll prove I'm the best - but I'm not hanging around for ever."

The Irishman's promoter Frank Warren has made a pounds 2million-plus offer for a unification contest between WBO super-middleweight champion Collins and IBF king Jones.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/ALAS+M......-a061337441

Jones, 28, said: "I would love to fight Collins because I rate him as an excellent boxer and I watch all his fights. There is no way he would beat me, but I respect his skills. Maybe one day we will get it together but right now I'm concentrating on my next fight and then I want to take on Virgil Hill.

"If Collins wants to fight me, then fine. But he has to get in the queue.

"I know my managers offered him around $2million last November and Collins refused, saying it was too little money. That shows he's not telling the whole story.

Collins scoffed at Jones' claims and said promoter Warren had not even received a reply from Jones' management after a multi-million pound offer was tabled last week.

But American TV are interested. Lou DiBella, a spokes- man for HBO, said: "Collins deserves his chance. Discussions are happening."

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/IT%27S...ht.-a061108823

In 1997 Collins said he wasnt motivated to fight anymore and announced his retirement. Saying he wanted to only fight Jones and no one else

Jones would then make him an offer:

DUBLIN, Ireland (Oct 8, 1997 - 16:05 EDT) -- WBC light-heavyweight
champion Roy Jones Jr. wants to fight Ireland's
Steve Collins, who announced his surprise retirement last week.

Collins, the former WBO super-middleweight champ, said he regretted
never having fought the American champion.

Jones' spokesman and publicist, Greg Fritz, said Wednesday the fight can
still happen.

"Roy has wanted to fight Steve for some time and if the money is right
he will," Fritz said. "He wants Steve to come out of
retirement to fight him."

Fritz said Jones would have to get $5 million for the fight.

"We are prepared to come to Dublin, Belfast, Boston, wherever he wants
to fight," Fritz said. "At this moment, I'm just waiting
for his call. The fight can be made."

In the meantime, Fritz said, negotiations are underway for Jones to
fight Germany's WBO light-heavyweight champion Dariusz
Michalczewski.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.s...83fe01f9ec9280

Collins was skeptical of the offer:

Steve Collins has cocked a sceptical eyebrow at the pounds 3million comeback offer from Roy Jones.

"If they are serious they can write to me my solicitor or my promoter," said the recently retired WBO super middleweight champion.

"I retired last week and I am not interested in the publicity stunts," added the Dubliner who fought 39 pro fights, lost only three and stopped opponents on 21 occasions.

"Asking for $5million, a totally unrealistic sum, shows that Jones does not really want the fight. It's just talk," said Collins.


Less than a week after Steve made a tearful farewell to the game that has probably netted him pounds 2m, the Jones camp came up with their offer.

But Collins insisted yesterday: "I retired last week, I am still retired and I am enjoying being retired, so I am not impressed with this nonsense."

At 33 Collins has lost his appetite for boxing and after ten tough years in the pro ranks has had enough.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Collin...27.-a061065836

"Normal Business Resumed" read the headlines. Well, I'm afraid it's true. Roy is back to his old self. The same old self that kept us guessing as to whether he could beat Nigel Benn when both were recognized as the super middleweight division's top guns. The same old self that really didn't want to face Benn's conqueror Steve Collins but instead of saying so blamed the fact that he wasn't getting his ridiculous purse demand of $5m. for the fight.

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/box12-97.htm

[IMDAZED]

Im talking about this:

He used it for that Hall fight
Refused to give a urine sample during his camp for the Harding fight - so he was most probably using for that fight

He was stacking, which is a strictly amateur way of using drugs. Either way it is a bad comparison, see post below

You can't compare Toney to Jones because:
1: We dont know what peds they both were using. They would have to using the same ped's to make a comparison
2: Toney weight went completely out of control post Ruiz- and its hard to make a fight by fight comparison for him him seeing as how his weight was all over the place.

Ok...let me repeat this one last time: You don't know when they stopped or started. Yet you based this knowledge to pretend you know when and how Jones fell off. Enough already. SMH.

[Toney616]

Ok...let me repeat this one last time: You don't know when they stopped or started. Yet you based this knowledge to pretend you know when and how Jones fell off. Enough already. SMH.

And now you are trying to twist my words AGAIN

I answered D33pwaters question on what times I think Jones used steroids and I explained why I believe that. If you disagree fine, but it changes nothing. It's my belief and seeing as how I'm not trying to force others here to believe it then I don't see what the problem is. As I said before when its comes to Jones you use double-standards. You have no problem twisting pre-fight Jones talks to suit your purposes, but when the shoes on the other foot all of a sudden you have a big problem.

I have pointed out that a comparison betwen Jones and Toney is flawed, so even if I'm completely wrong you are no better off, then when you started.

As for Jones falling off, I said he slipped from the Harding to the Harmon fight. He was still a damn good fighter after that, as he proved against Woods, Ruiz and Tarver I. You are the one claiming he was on his last legs post Ruiz, not me.

[Toney616]

I've already said I don't believe a fight with Tarver is a style deterministic match up. I grant you, It can be determined by Tarver's power and Jones' chin but the point is, the better will win regardless of how much either struggles.as above.

I believe that Dawson is a much better fighter than Jean 'B-Level' Pascal, but Pascal style gave him fits. But in theory you are right, the better man should win most of the time

[Toney616]

What do you think of Tarver now?

I've never really rated Tarver for the following reasons:

1: Conditioning:
He tended to blow up between fights geting as high as 210. He struggled to make the lhw limit and its the reason he tended to fight in spurts

2: Intangibles:
When it looks like the fight is going away from him he tends to mentally shut down, as he did against Hopkins.

3: Trainers advice:
He tends to refuse to listen to what McGirt is telling him, even when Tarvers own game plan is not working. See the Hopkins fight where McGirt is trying to get him to jab with confdence and put punches together

I haven't seen any of his fights, post Dawson II, so I have no opinion on the current version of Tarver.

[Vadrigar.]

I've never really rated Tarver for the following reasons:

1: Conditioning:
He tended to blow up between fights geting as high as 210. He struggled to make the lhw limit and its the reason he tended to fight in spurts

2: Intangibles:
When it looks like the fight is going away from him he tends to mentally shut down, as he did against Hopkins.

3: Trainers advice:
He tends to refuse to listen to what McGirt is telling him, even when Tarvers own game plan is not working. See the Hopkins fight where McGirt is trying to get him to jab with confdence and put punches together

I haven't seen any of his fights, post Dawson II, so I have no opinion on the current version of Tarver.

Didn't Toney blow up between fights too?

[Toney616]

Didn't Toney blow up between fights too?

Toneys conditioning at mw-smw tends to be blown out of proportion. The only fight I've seen at those divisions were his conditioning is below par is the Tiberi fight. It only started to get out of control during his lhw days, which is why he moved up to cw. He was never really any good at lhw