Jack Johnson v Wladimir Klitschko

[forget]

Johnson would be the best fighter Wladimir ever faced.

[SN!PER]

This wouldn't be an easy fight for Wlad no matter what anyone in this thread says.

Jack fought 20 round fights, and could easily go more if necessary. He lasted 26 rounds against a young Jess Willard.

He was 53 years old when he fought his last fight. He knocked out a 31 year old in that fight.

This guy is a fucking monster who would outlast any heavyweight today in sparring or training. Today's heavyweights would be vomiting, exhausted and sore trying to keep up with Jack in his training camp.

[soul_survivor]

This wouldn't be an easy fight for Wlad no matter what anyone in this thread says.

Jack fought 20 round fights, and could easily go more if necessary. He lasted 26 rounds against a young Jess Willard.

He was 53 years old when he fought his last fight. He knocked out a 31 year old in that fight.

This guy is a fucking monster who would outlast any heavyweight today in sparring or training. Today's heavyweights would be vomiting, exhausted and sore trying to keep up with Jack in his training camp.

Physical fitness is all well and good but physical fitness alone doesn't mean you win a fight. I think Wlad wins but I think JJ would hurt him and could maybe even stop him but its 70-30 in Wlads favour.

But that is taking nothing away from how good JJ was in his own era.

[BKM-2010]

I must say billeau2 did a great job explaining the grappling aspects of this matchup.

I love Johnson, I watched Unforgivable Blackness last sunday. And let me tell you, Johnson was incredibly strong. He pushed back Jeffries who although past prime was still incredibly strong and in his prime considered as one of the strongest men in boxing history.

He also pushed back Willard who dwarfed him in size untill he got tired. That fight lasted over 20 rounds and Jack was past his prime.

Johnson was a true master of his craft. I think Wlad would not be able to impose his will on the inside.

The tricky part here is the glove sizes. Johnson was the best at catching punches with his hands or i should say blocking them and parrying. But hey, look at moddrn boxer Winky Wright, he showed that this style can be incorperated to todays boxing.

[billeau2]

Here is another example...Tunney versus Dempsey 2 in this fight look at how Tunney initiates grappling to tie up Dempsey and eventually forces the action using mobility. When he grabs it is skillfully done, he moves his fight instead of planting....It is a way to control a bigger stronger man, that is what it is used for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLLOByFyhq4

I think Tunney was the bees knees his feet were maybe as fast, if not cloes to Johnsons, but he was not as skilled a grappler as Johnson. Yet it is a major component of his technique used specifically to neutralize a bigger stronger opponent. I think Vitali would tire quickly under these conditions.

The thing to remember is that when your feet are not planted there is no effect when a bigger man throws you around....you maintain control and as soon as the big man hesitates you keep an arm locked and hit. Johnson was a master of this and Gene had the skill as well...its why he could fight with Dempsey.

[billeau2]

I must say billeau2 did a great job explaining the grappling aspects of this matchup.

I love Johnson, I watched Unforgivable Blackness last sunday. And let me tell you, Johnson was incredibly strong. He pushed back Jeffries who although past prime was still incredibly strong and in his prime considered as one of the strongest men in boxing history.

He also pushed back Willard who dwarfed him in size untill he got tired. That fight lasted over 20 rounds and Jack was past his prime.

Johnson was a true master of his craft. I think Wlad would not be able to impose his will on the inside.

The tricky part here is the glove sizes. Johnson was the best at catching punches with his hands or i should say blocking them and parrying. But hey, look at moddrn boxer Winky Wright, he showed that this style can be incorperated to todays boxing.

One of the biggest obstacles to looking at fighters clearly is how others have, in the past used prejudices instead of information to evaluate what would happen in a head to head contest. Burt Sugar among others is accused of having a prejudice towards the older fighters....Some guys it is the opposite prejudice.

One thing I look at is data from MMA because I have seen and worked with guys who are heavyweights. MMA, like boxing at that time is in its infancy. Of course there were more grappling manuveurs in boxing up until around the 40's and even then fighters retained any of those skills.

Here is the interesting thing: Fighters used those grappling manuveurs against bigger guys. Big guys were around back then contrary to people who think the Klitschkos are a modern evolutionary Zarathustra! Not all big guys were slow and stupid! Valeri gave the example of Jeffries there were others. And, weight is not the only thing that makes size....and vice versa.

I got yelled at in another thread for using myself as an example but it is instructive here: If you saw me you would think I weighed about 220-250. I am big but not fat... I.e I keepvery physically active. If I walked in a ring I would look about 220-250 but I weigh about 275. In my case, when I took an XRay I was told my bones are really dense....my point is that a guy who weighs about 210 and is rangy would dwarf me by looks! There is more to size than weight!

On this same note. Guys in MMA who weigh about 240? some of them look positively small because of the way they train it. Other guys come in and look large and menacing, and weigh maybe 200-210. And some guys are very well built and weigh 200 barely. Size and weight for a heavyweight in MMA do not correlate to success. The ground neutralizes a lot of weight but there are other reasons.

I think this data helps us evaluate the advantage a big man who trains for 12 rounds would have, as well as the disadvantage, in a 15 round fight where one needed certain skills to survive the ring. IMO to say that Klitschko was super strong, and could punch once to end it does not hold up to historical data where boxers are typically unable to oppose the grapple with one big punch. Besides Vitali being particularly rangy and muscular does not really help him. His stamina is a known variable and it would be big problem for him. We know other big punchers like Dempsey could be dealt with, I believe Vitali could be dealt with as well. Johnson was a superb grappler. He didn't ever wait to grab when he was in trouble, he anticipated the possability and had an arm before it ever happened.

Finally Guys fought back then so the head was back in defensive position, or they were attacking. This was done because with small gloves a quick punch to the head would end it. This meant that to get a big punch off one had to sustain an attack or counter very quickly. Klitschko would not be able to simply grab and hold, he would be countered at that range and set up. If he tried to use his size it would look like he was dancing with Johnson because Johnson did not set his feet. His chance would be to catch Johnson coming in...and its a distinct possability. Considering his conditioning he would have to do it relatively quickly though.

[Boxing Goat]

Wladimir would annihilate Jack Johnson. The fight would be like Kovalev fighting Broner.

[Boxing Goat]

Johnson would be able to outbox Wlad and would reach that delicate chin.

Bwahahahahaha!!!!!!!

This fool said out-box! LOL

[Boxing Goat]

Johnson would be the best fighter Wladimir ever faced.

Half of Wlads opponents would knock out Johnson though. He was too small to be competitive in this era.

[soul_survivor]

Boxing GOAT, I think you are severely underrating JJ and billeau2 great work on the MMA/grappling break down but you are hinging everything on the clinching. Wlad I believe has a better and more powerful jab and hits harder with his right hand too.

The chin is a big question though, could JJ hit hard enough to trouble Wlad and could he even get close enough to initiate action on the inside?