Greatest Middleweights Ever: Revisited

[soul_survivor]

I've done a similar list before but I'm revamping it, having done more research on the division than ever before. Countless hours of tape and reading on the topic. It's actually taken me about 6-7 months of off and on research, coupled with university and work and so on. So here goes my top 20:

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Ray Robinson
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Harry Greb
6. Emile Griffith
7. Mickey Walker
8. Dick Tiger
9. James Toney
10. Nino Benvenuti
11. Jake LaMotta
12. Stanley Ketchel
13. Joey Giardello
14. Tiger Flowers
15. Marcel Cerdan
16. Roy Jones Jr
17. Sergio Martinez
18. Mike McCullum
19. Ray Leonard
20. Iran Barkley

[IronDanHamza]

Good solid list. A lot of choices for your top 10 are the same as mine.

A few I wouldn't include and some I include that you don't but good overall.

Here's my Top 10;

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Harry Greb
3. Ray Robinson
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Bob Fitzsimmons
6. Charley Burley
7. Jake Lamotta
8. Dick Tiger
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. Freddie Steele

[Salardo]

I've done a similar list before but I'm revamping it, having done more research on the division than ever before. Countless hours of tape and reading on the topic. It's actually taken me about 6-7 months of off and on research, coupled with university and work and so on. So here goes my top 20:

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Ray Robinson
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Harry Greb
6. Emile Griffith
7. Mickey Walker
8. Dick Tiger
9. James Toney
10. Nino Benvenuti
11. Jake LaMotta
12. Stanley Ketchel
13. Joey Giardello
14. Tiger Flowers
15. Marcel Cerdan
16. Roy Jones Jr
17. Sergio Martinez
18. Mike McCullum
19. Ray Leonard
20. Iran Barkley

Nice list.
Personally I think Barkley, Tiger Flowers, Toney and Emile Griffith should not be in the top 20, and Monzon should not be number 1 (great fighter though).
Roy Jones also shouldn't be in the list because he barely fought at middleweight and Emile Griffith was mainly a welterweight.

[FightFit]

I got a question i havent watched a lot of monzon but what made him so great to be above robinson in your opinion was he better all round did he achieve more.

[New England]

I got a question i havent watched a lot of monzon but what made him so great to be above robinson in your opinion was he better all round did he achieve more.

he had a very long run as the best MW on the planet. hopkins broke his record, but he wasn't defending the lineal title, the way mozon did after beating benvenutti in the first fight.

monzon ended the career of the great italian benvenutti. wins over smaller greats napoles and griffith [2x.]
wins over solid contenders tony licata, rodrigo valdez [later became a champion,] bennie briscoe.

his losses and draws were early in his career. argentina would score fights that were within a few points as a draw. IIRC, he avenged every loss, and almost all of the draws.

he was a lot bigger than robinson. he had wider shoulders, a longer reach, and more natural size. robinson fought much of his prime at WW, and by the time he got to MW he had slowed down some. i wouldn't call him a more able fighter p4p than robinson by any stretch. he very well could beat him at middleweight, though. robinson lost to worse fighters at MW.

[soul_survivor]

I got a question i havent watched a lot of monzon but what made him so great to be above robinson in your opinion was he better all round did he achieve more.

I think new england has answered you very very well but I'll have my say I guess lol

First off, I just want to say that p4p, Robinson is greater than Monzon but having previously positioned Robinson number one at 160, I went back, watched fight types, reviewed who fought who and Monzon managed 14 title defences and fought better fighters, putting together one of the best resumes I can think of. Not only that, there was a certain ferocity to him too that made him one of the big stars of 70s boxing.

[soul_survivor]

Good solid list. A lot of choices for your top 10 are the same as mine.

A few I wouldn't include and some I include that you don't but good overall.

Here's my Top 10;

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Harry Greb
3. Ray Robinson
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Bob Fitzsimmons
6. Charley Burley
7. Jake Lamotta
8. Dick Tiger
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. Freddie Steele

That's a good list too but you know my opinion about ranking guys like Greb and Fitzsimmons and co. LOL but we've been over it so many times I own't start again.

Just a side note, I was very, very close to having Steele in my own list and just barely left him out.

Nice list.
Personally I think Barkley, Tiger Flowers, Toney and Emile Griffith should not be in the top 20, and Monzon should not be number 1 (great fighter though).
Roy Jones also shouldn't be in the list because he barely fought at middleweight and Emile Griffith was mainly a welterweight.

The Jones question is an intriguing one. At first I had him nowhere near a top 15, let alone 20 but I looked into his mw career a bit more, I was too young to remember his fights pre-Hopkins, even the Hopkins fight I watched a few years later. Most of what I saw of Roy was what we all saw, the late 90s run at super middle and light heavy.

Dig a bit deeper and you find his career was a bit of a hidden gem at 160, he beat Vaca, who was a former ww champ and had beaten Honeyghan, who in his own right was a terrific fighter. Yes Jones came in above the contracted cw but the simple destruction of Vaca, who was 48-9 at the time, in a single round is impressive to say the least. Plus it was only RJJs 16th pro fight.

Then Jones beat Castro, a guy who would go on to beat Reggie Johnson for the WBA title and fight and go the distance with Jirov, a man who gave Toney hell. This is a young, 17-0 pro who is beating guys far more experienced and who are future or past world champs. Thomas is another solid win and then there's the big one, the almost complete out classing of Bernard Hopkins, barely dropping 2 or 3 rounds against a man who would become one of the greatest middleweights ever. I've never seen a fighter since Ali look so comfortable in their first ever title fight...Jones had a broken hand in this one too.

I just found all that too hard to ignore, a worthy top 20 160 pounder.

[AVDB]

Nice list.
Personally I think Barkley, Tiger Flowers, Toney and Emile Griffith should not be in the top 20, and Monzon should not be number 1 (great fighter though).
Roy Jones also shouldn't be in the list because he barely fought at middleweight and Emile Griffith was mainly a welterweight.

But he beat Hopkins at middle. He beat Toney too except it was at super middle.

[boliodogs]

I've done a similar list before but I'm revamping it, having done more research on the division than ever before. Countless hours of tape and reading on the topic. It's actually taken me about 6-7 months of off and on research, coupled with university and work and so on. So here goes my top 20:

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Ray Robinson
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Harry Greb
6. Emile Griffith
7. Mickey Walker
8. Dick Tiger
9. James Toney
10. Nino Benvenuti
11. Jake LaMotta
12. Stanley Ketchel
13. Joey Giardello
14. Tiger Flowers
15. Marcel Cerdan
16. Roy Jones Jr
17. Sergio Martinez
18. Mike McCullum
19. Ray Leonard
20. Iran Barkley

Nobody ever agrees on these lists and there is no way to prove or disprove any list comparing fighters of the same weight and a spread of 100 or more years with little or no film on some of them. For all the research you did some of your choices seem strange to me. I think Robinson is always overrated on middleweight lists. He might have been the best welterweight of all time but I don't think he was even close to the best middleweight of all time. He lost almost half of his title fights at middleweight and only won the middleweight title 5 times because he kept losing it. Hagler, Hopkins and Monzon only had to win the middleweight title once and then defended it successfully many times without a loss. I agree with them being high on your list. I don't think Leonard should be in the top 20. I thought the past prime Hagler beat him and Leonard never rematched him and never again fought at middleweight. Martinez has avoided most of the top middleweights and should not be on the list. GGG would deserve a spot on the list more than Martinez. Barkley should not be on the list. He lost the tittle in his first defense to little Duran. Griffith is way too high with all of his losses. Benvenuti was not that good. Mc Callum was a belt holder for a very short time and doesn't belong on the list. If old timer Ketchel is on your list Fitzsimmons should be higher than him since he soon won the heavyweight title. LaMotta and Giardello had to many losses to be so high. There is no film of Greb and if he is so high why isn't Flowers higher? Marcel Cerdan should be much higher and Toney Zale is much better than many on your list and should be pretty high up in the top 20. That's my opinion on some of your list and I have no way to prove it. Overall it's a good list but you made some strange choices and left out some fighters that should have been on the list.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

1. Hagler
2. Monzon
3. Robinson
4. Greb
5. Jones jr
6. Walker
7. Hopkins
8. La Motta
9. Griffith
10. Tiger

But this list changes alot,, especially 4-10,,, Im pretty locked in on my top 3